Healing Your Gut: Restoring Microbiome Health with Dr. Grace Liu

WELCOME TO EPISODE 212

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT 

Freddie Kimmel (00:01.806)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beautifully broken podcast. are here with Dr. Grace Liu. Welcome to the show.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (00:09.618)
Thank you, Freddie. Such an honor to be here.

Freddie Kimmel (00:13.146)
It's an honor to have you on the show. As I was saying, when we started, I was listening to you 2013, 2012, really, really early on in my health journey. And it was, so incredibly insightful and inspirational. You were definitely one of the first people that I was following that was really talking about the microbiome before it was a thing. Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (00:36.828)
Yeah. Yeah, I had a podcast back then too. I was like way ahead of the curve before people even knew what podcasts were. We had a Gut Guardian podcast.

Freddie Kimmel (00:46.252)
Yeah. And so why, why gut health? What drew you initially to the microbiome and the human, the human community, which makes up all these diverse microbes in our gut.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (00:59.962)
You know, when I first got into my acute health journey, I had to learn a lot, like a big up ramp in learning curve to heal myself because I came from traditional medicine. And then I met some really great mentors in the functional medicine space. And they kept telling me, Grace, you got to get into microbiome space, get into microbiome topics. I was like, what? Like it was so immense back then and no one really understood it. But I was really lucky enough to get that heads up because

It does link all aspects of longevity, our telomeres, centenarian lifestyles and health and their metrics and biohacking, because it's really hard to biohack actually something we don't understand, a big black box of mystery, know? And they were right. Like it's, really at the center of a lot of everything we think about for health, autoimmunity, cancer, you know, everyone's background is cancer now.

So it's really a part of all of it. And I'm way beyond that actually now. I think microbiome health is super important and there's ways to hack all of it. But we still also have to look at other things like today, we started with the deep breathing exercise, and I, and we're all energy and that's part of the microbiome, but there's a whole other component to health, many components to health.

and we can have disruptions anywhere, there's magic and mystery, you know, in trying to align all of it, I think.

Freddie Kimmel (02:36.89)
Yeah. If we got on an elevator in New York City, tall building, let's say there's 30 floors to ride and you were to tell us what your health crisis or your pain to power scenario looked like, what would that story be?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (02:53.064)
it would be probably more than 30 floors worth, because it would involve like career change. know, I was super into pharmaceuticals. I was really good at handing them out as well as, you know, talking to physicians to educate them and increase use, right? Utilization of generic to brand, let's say, I mean, brand to generic, you know, and using, you know, more protocol based, you know, pharmaceuticals.

But when I got damaged by pharmaceuticals, primarily, and actually the dental field too, because I had an implant that kind of triggered a lot of health problems, a dental implant, then a set of antibiotics. Yeah. And then not really an implant, a soft implant, but a Mirena IUD, a really high dose progestin, fake contraceptive intrauterine device, my health went into chronic fatigue.

And it wasn't too unsimilar to a lot of long haul clients we have now. People who just have unknown fatigue for years and years. And I was really lucky to be able to get out of it. And it took like massive healing, like on many, many levels, maybe more than 30 levels even. And I didn't even have the magic tricks back then. So this was like back in 2008, nine, all the way to 12, 13.

and 2012, 13, and I learned so much about functional and regenerative medicine. And back then I didn't really know about peptides. No one did. But now with peptides, we're getting like healing in 10 times faster rates, like absolutely phenomenal faster rates. So yeah, it's an interesting journey, but not dissimilar from what many others have gone through. You know, hit a bottom point and then you have to figure out

you know, what's going to work for your unique genetics, your unique toxins and trauma, right? And other touch points. And everything's unique and different. Yeah, I don't have a prescription or a template for everybody. Although it might sound like I do sometimes, you know, but it's not. Everyone's super customized. I believe we have about 88 different systems in our body. once our human bodies are just so incredible and amazing, you know, when you fill in enough,

Freddie Kimmel (04:58.531)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (05:20.133)
of these systems, the rest will fix on its own. If you can fix the right number and the right combination, which are unique for everybody and there's infinite numbers of combinations, The body will on its own fix the rest.

Freddie Kimmel (05:35.738)
It's beautiful. hear you. I hear you. I understand what it's like to be considered an expert in an area. And for me, sometimes I'm, I feel myself like a little exhausted about the, you know, I would, I would be, I would consider myself like a technology enthusiast, a technologist. And I love the tech. I love the toys. And most importantly,

Today, I think it's a great way in for people to get excited about health. It's a great door, door number one. You can open, you can get all excited about what we can do with red light and oxygen and hyperbarics and ozone. And I could go on and on, but there's so much more to the conversation. And I'd say today, it's allowed me to really meet people where they're at when we start the conversation. But like you, would just join with you and say there's so much more.

There's so many regulatory systems and we have to inspire and empower people to really know the body and know all that's involved because without it, we're never going to get to this place of hyper -personalized medicine and care, which I think we need to truly heal to a level of functionality where we can, then the person can go kind of run on their own.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (06:59.462)
Yeah, I agree. totally agree.

Freddie Kimmel (07:02.104)
Yeah. And so did you want to add something to that?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (07:06.922)
yeah, mean, just people have different fears, you know? So where you begin that conversation, you know, it'll really be informed by what they have faith in and what they fear. And unknown is, you know, a big, topic.

Freddie Kimmel (07:18.798)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (07:22.532)
I know. I know I want to talk about, do want to stay on gut health today because I think it's so, as I said in the beginning, there's over, think, what'd somebody tell me? There's millions and millions of podcasts today, let alone about health. There's lots of products. There's lots of very intelligent people in the field who would be seen as an expert, you know, and there's so much noise to sort through. Lord knows I've,

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (07:38.216)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (07:46.503)
Mm

Freddie Kimmel (07:52.26)
had seasons of this company and that company and things I love for the gut and things that have just been really hit or miss for me. I know there's a very popular company. want, we don't, we can name some companies. We don't have to name companies. There's a company out there that sells a test that's very highly, they have a great marketing budget. And so they test your gut and they tell you the

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (08:01.309)
No.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (08:13.096)
for sure.

Freddie Kimmel (08:15.64)
the supplements that you need to heal. And there's an ad running, I'm getting targeted all the time now by this girl. She's like, I was so tired of bloated and then I took this test and this company told me what I needed as far as supplements and now I'm so much better. And

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (08:28.264)
We get a lot of clients from rejects from that company.

Freddie Kimmel (08:32.246)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody calls me and says, Freddie, I'm going to do this. I say, my general rule of thumb is like, when someone tells you the test to tell you what the problem is, and then they sell you the solution, it's really, it's challenging to separate that incentive model, just like it's challenging to separate an incentive model to just prescribe chemotherapy for cancer. Right? There's a huge

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (08:45.212)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (09:01.002)
The bias is so profound. And the only thing I could say in full transparency is like, have a red light company I've worked with for six years. I love them. I know the warranty. I know it's good. And that's the one I'm incentivized, right? So I'll own, I have my own bias too, but how do we start to sort through some of the noise? And even a better question for you, because I want to give you an actual question, is where do people start when they want to understand

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (09:11.718)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (09:29.754)
that the steps to improve really make a dramatic improvement in their gut health.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (09:36.066)
It's not unlike running a race, right? If you have a race, you know, if you're competitive, you want to know, okay, what PR you need to get and where is your target? Like, is it a long race or a short race, a sprint, right? So this is the same with health. feel like, what's your goal? You know, if you don't really give a fuck, like, okay, you just want to feel better. All right, that's easy, right? But if your end game is like, okay, I want to live long enough to see my grandkids or my grandpuppy, okay, for a baby, you know, people, you know.

It's like, what's your, what's your goal? Like, do you want endless energy or do you just want double the energy? Okay. Right. So I go, it's easier to go from there. Like we have both standards and it's well known because we have so many great microbiome studies. for me, I look at centenarian data. You can't go wrong with centenarian data. These people have terrible genetics. Just like everybody, you know, you move them to an urban setting. They're going to start dying like flies.

Freddie Kimmel (10:15.214)
Yes.

Freddie Kimmel (10:26.297)
Okay.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (10:34.94)
And that's actually started to happen in some centenarian ecosystems because of their diet is changing to modern urban eating, processed foods and things like that. But if we look at their micro, centenarian microbiomes, they have the ABCs and it's very similar to European microbiome studies. These people in Europe often have much less use of.

pesticides, glyphosate, antibiotics in their healthcare system. They're just lot more practical. They're not big pharma -based like US is based on pharma medicines and their protocols that they've created. So when I look at centenarian data, I'm looking at like, okay, what's the overall structure of the microbiome? What do we see, right? Well, we'll see a minimum of 13 to 20 keystone flora.

And these are the same ones found in Europe. And if we find healthy individuals in US, the same 13 to 19 are found in their microbiomes. So kind of like a wealth portfolio, you know, there's diversity, there's abundance of these keystone leaders. They're basically conductors of the symphony. And centenarians, what they have abundance in for their bifidose is bifidobacteria longum. So I make a probiotic and it's got the highest strength.

in the industry for potency of bifidobacteria longum. And like the name suggests, it's for longevity. It's like 10 to 20 times stronger and more abundant in centenarian guts and those who are really, really healthy, like COVID -free, let's say, symptom -free and long -haul -free and cancer -free, because bifidobacteria longum is found to be very, very anti -cancer. And it's equivalent to even PD -1 inhibitor drugs.

when they look at animal studies without side effects. PD -1 inhibitor drugs will cause pancreatic failure, liver failure, all organ failure, increased even mortality. So when I'm looking at a microbiome, we generally don't really know what's going on. Each test can give one aspect of the gut, none are perfect, but they're better than nothing. And I'm looking at trends, I'm looking at a pattern shifting.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (12:49.906)
to move it toward like a centenarian profile, a healthier profile. And some people feel great after just like one or two programs with us. I aim to go through four programs with people at least, or eight, depending on how long their condition has been lasting. Basically, the longer a condition has been lasting, the more damage in the gut, basically. Some people have restricted their diet, they're eating less and less and less.

Freddie Kimmel (12:53.444)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (13:17.34)
And that in a way is actually damaging the microbiome as well. It's depriving the keystone flora from really important fuel and they die. They'll go more more extinct. we want to, it's about like resurrecting actually what's not there. And in Western guts, what study shows one third of the native microflora are gone. They're literally extinct. So by taking a probiotic carefully, we can definitely resurrect what's not there.

And fortunately now we have a lot of different diverse probiotics on the market, which 20 years ago they didn't exist. So these are really important to bring that native rainforest back.

Freddie Kimmel (14:00.566)
Yeah, talk to me about the word carefully. To take a probiotic carefully. What do mean by that?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (14:04.232)
So, depending on the damage in the gut, how permeable the gut is and what's leaking out, what is the immune system attacking? Because for really ill people, I would say the most ill would be inflammatory bowel disease because there's an immune attack on the very gut, the very area of the immune system we're trying to fix. Cancer and long haul, these are probably the three worst conditions I probably see regularly.

There's a high degree of permeability and there's a high degree of attack on the gut and other areas. In these cases, you know what the root issues are? Often heavy metals compounded with mold and compounded with different co -infections. There's a root issue to these expressive conditions. Finding the root issue is really important because you can chase trying to heal the microbiome,

the hierarchy of what's causing the root issue needs to be addressed. Because you can't keep doing the protocols like killing protocols or even feeding the gut, fueling the gut. So depending on the amount of autoimmune attack going on or just attack from the immune system, a lot of normal prebiotics we would use are going to cause flares. And even starches will cause flares, right?

And even probiotics might cause flares depending on what their immune system is attacking. And obviously these are all not natural. I would say kind of wrong. It's unnatural because when you look at centenarians, they can kind of eat everything. They eat everything. They eat a of starches, beans, rice. they eat even gluten and dairy all day long sometimes, you know, and they're completely fine. They're not launching autoimmune attack, right, to these normally, you know, allergenic foods.

And why is that? Well, because they have a great microbiome.

Freddie Kimmel (16:02.682)
Yeah, it really is a superpower. You know, I drive home once in a while and I'm looking, I'll just look at traffic patterns and there's, of course, there's a Taco Bell by my house and there's a McDonald's. And then there's a Chick -fil -A and there's a line. There is a line of cars. It's 530. I'm like, how are these people not going home and just having like full diarrhea blowouts like after this food?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (16:14.663)
Right.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (16:19.08)
They're addicted.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (16:28.57)
Well, they probably are. just, yeah, like don't show it on social media or something.

Freddie Kimmel (16:33.274)
They might. Yeah. But I, when I was in college or even in high school, I do remember, you know, that's where we went to lunch. We went to Wendy's, we went to Taco Bell, we went to Arby's, we got to pick. And it was a really great, I loved it because it was, I worked with my dad in an engineering firm. We would go take a family lunch break together. You know, we would see how much we could eat, but I remember every single time we would go to lunch. This is, I'm 16 or 17.

And I never told anybody this, but I would be fighting to keep my head off the desk. I would be so tired and I would just be like, this is what after lunch feels like it's normal, you know, but the fatigue was oppressive. I would even go take a nap in the bathroom once in a while, but you know, no, no bowel issues, no digestive upset, but extreme fatigue that I would just, I would write off as normal. This is what lunch feels like.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (17:29.028)
Yeah, and you'd have like the soda, high fructose corn syrup. Yep.

Freddie Kimmel (17:34.634)
we would, I'd get a 20 piece nugget, a Big Mac, the soda, probably like some type of a frozen chocolate shake to bring back to work with me, you know, and then have like a high protein, right? And then have it like a really big, yeah, have like a really big coffee with a bunch of synthetic creamers in it afterwards. It was basically like a sugar milkshake just to stay awake.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (17:57.252)
Yeah, we used to go through gallons of like, it used to be called Price Club, you know, can't believe it's not butter, you know, it was totally trans fats. I know.

Freddie Kimmel (18:07.48)
Yeah, wild. Wild. So tell me about, tell me about when you say testing, you, and you said you like to go through programs with people, four day programs, what sort of testing or diagnostic work do you like to see before drawing some sort of a direction or conclusion on what a person might need?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (18:26.49)
Right. So on our website, you'll see I actually also teach coaches and clinicians about how to approach the gut. And I'm faculty at different places, other institutions as well. And for gut testing, we have many ways to look at it. One I like is called metabolomic. So it's using urine and seeing what the metabolites of the microbiome are eliciting out. first they're going to go through the bloodstream, they get filtered, then they go through the kidneys.

and we catch what's going through the kidneys and the urine. It's really super non -invasive, so you just collect the urine in the morning, freeze it up, it to Kansas. The next is stool. With stool, you can do a variety of different breakdowns. You can culture it, or you can QPCR it using metagenomics, which is great. We have second -gen generation metagenomics, so we can kind of...

break down all the DNA of the flora itself, magnify it, amplify it, and see what's living there. And because species are so distinct, you can really drill down to the species, which is really helpful. And that's a really great way, but it misses stuff. I've seen a big gap between what we know for yeast and fungal overgrowth. That's why there's advantages of doing a urine test, because you'll see more of the fungal element.

And I use kind of, I use a lower threshold. you know, the labs may say, this is normal. We don't go that way. We have a functional range. So it's much lower for health. We really shouldn't be having lots of fungi and mold or Candida overgrowth going on. So when people get healthier and they reverse their autoimmune diseases or reverse, go into remission for cancer or heal whatever long haul or whatever the problem is, co -infections.

we'll see the mold and fungal elements really go down to zero. That's our ultimate goal, not to have really any much detectable. But using a stool kit, it's really great for bacteria. We can see the bacterial changes. Now, bacteria are really interesting. It really is like a wild and native rainforest going on. Fungi are an amazing host for parasites and even H. pylori. He'll go back to pylori and other bacteria.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (20:48.988)
It's hard to get rid of certain bacteria overgrowth, which we know are pathogenic, because they're living inside yeast. Does that kind of comprehend? And hopefully for the audience. we...

Freddie Kimmel (20:58.69)
Yeah, tell the audience more about that, idea that that could live inside yeast.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (21:02.836)
Yeah. So, you we have drug classes like antibiotics is for bacteria. have antifungals, which are for fungi. Well, it's hard to eradicate or lower a pathogenic burden, like say bacteria like Helicobacter pylori. It's hard to get lower it if it's living inside another life form like a yeast. So that's what studies show. They live inside candida and you won't be able to attack it. You won't be able to relinquish it out of the gut microbiome.

And then it will just keep creating havoc. And our protocols are really effective because we're doing concurrent protocols. And then really what is at the heart of a microbiome issue is what's missing. So there's a really fabulous book by Martin Blaser. It's called Missing Microbes. It really should be like required reading for everybody. Even what we think is pathogenic, know, our kind has really lived with things for millions of years, certain bacteria, and they still belong in the gut.

And what we're missing is a lot of keystone flora. So when we're able to resurrect these, like I mentioned to you, when we have so many different systems, when we fill in enough, the body will take care of all the rest. So that's what's shown with keystone flora too. When we bring in enough of the keystone flora, many other species will pop back up because they're down to 0 .001 % of the whole microbiome, but they'll come back, especially if they're fed properly with the right staging of prebiotics, not bring in something too early.

bringing in at the right time. So when we bring in enough of the keystone, the missing flora, everything else will kind of fix itself. And at the same time, we have to weed. There is usually after antibiotic overuse in the healthcare systems, especially with pandemic, hyper hygiene, super sanitation, everyone's cleaning excessively. We've lost a lot of protective keystone flora. By bringing them back, everything else fills in.

And so that's the same with H. pylori. When we can lower enough yeast, we're also actually concurrently lowering the H. pylori to a manageable level. And there's actually good and bad H. pylori. Good H. pylori is shown to be protective against cancers, adenocarcinoma, asthma, which I used to have, and many other conditions. And then the really kind of more carcinogenic H. pylori, as you know, is associated with esophagitis cancer.

Freddie Kimmel (23:08.302)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (23:27.72)
gastric cancer and many other problems. But we can, by having a healthy foundation of keystone flora, there's selection of actually the good H. pylori that will come out. Yeah, so there's a bit of a balance. Yeah, and depending on the testing, you know, people look at, you have to look at it with like kind of the context of it. Yeah, and knowing that stool kits aren't gonna show the yeast, even though it's gonna be present, it's always 200 % present.

Freddie Kimmel (23:41.444)
Beautiful.

Freddie Kimmel (23:57.636)
So talk to me about the test. There's so many tests out there and so many different, again, marketing spins on, this is the sequencing that you need to do to get a full picture. What test do you currently use or what do you like?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (24:12.296)
there's always gonna be new tests. I haven't really seen anything really blow my mind or anything. So I kind of just stick with foundational functional testing. I like DSLs, their GI map. It's not great for, again, looking at yeast. That's one of their big, big limitations. But they really improve the inflammatory profile, like looking at eosinophils, EPX, looking at calprotectin, zonulin. Those are really great to track, because they should

Freddie Kimmel (24:20.504)
Mm

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (24:42.288)
really get better for people with the protocols. And it's really good to look at just the bacteria. Not that we're gonna go and kill all the bacteria in there, but it's just good to map it out and see it improve. The red zone should go down. Any detectable, methane or other flora that are kind of considered pathogenic, H. pylori and others, kind of see them go down.

and then see the growth of the keystones. So I really love their profile for the keystones. They don't look at species like bifidolongom. You have to use other testing to do that, like Vibrant Labs to kind of drill those down, other testing will probably come out again, like 16S testing. And they're pretty cheap too, but they don't give you the gut inflammatory markers the way that GI Map does. So we should see those go down. And for us now, I like the GI Map because so many people are immunocompromised.

Freddie Kimmel (25:20.228)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (25:37.192)
You know, after having a lot of, you know, gut problems, our immune system is the gut. 80, 90 % is the gut lining and the flora there. So after so much inflammation, there's an exhaustion in the immune system. And on the testing, yet everything's flat, very low instead of in a sweet zone. And what we should see is these come up. These values should come up not, and they may even go red for a while high.

Freddie Kimmel (25:52.548)
Mmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (26:04.008)
but then they lower to an acceptable normal range. Everyone's really immunocompromised. I don't know if it's spike protein, you know, and just the amount of stress people undergo, not seeing their friends and that persists kind of, or they feel fear, you know, seeing friends again, being social again. Yeah, so those are the main two tests, but I do a lot of subjective looking at things. So what ties into the gut function is the vagal nerve. And as you know, one of the best,

Freddie Kimmel (26:22.488)
Yeah, that's...

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (26:32.922)
metrics for the vagal nerve, our nervous system, right, is HRV.

Freddie Kimmel (26:40.003)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (26:40.124)
which is easy to manipulate. Although for some people...

Freddie Kimmel (26:43.418)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. I was just doing this. again, I've, I don't know what it is, but something knocked my HRV for two months and normally mine 70 to 90. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty good. Yeah. I got a pretty good nervous system and I've, it was, it was whacked for awhile, but in the last month I did a, tried a new binder. I think it's

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (27:09.448)
yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (27:11.31)
But that's my one theory. know, so the binder was in the mix. I did a, tried a cycle of rap immune. that's in the mix. And then I got COVID like two times back to back. And that was in the middle, and, lots of airplane travel, but I'm just, it's just starting to come back into the forties and the fifties. What

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (27:33.224)
You don't have an epiphyto. That's the deciding point, how symptomatic people are to COVID.

Freddie Kimmel (27:41.412)
Yeah, explain that to me. Why is Bifido

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (27:43.192)
Yeah, we have whole microbiome studies and it's typically they'll link it to just one species, bifidose. Maybe one or two other species might be found now that are co -related, but it's bifidobacterial lungum and other bifidose. These are just hard to get to anchor and stick. It's such a great asset, it's not fragile, but it does take a lot of FODMAPs to feed these and a lot of antioxidants like pomegranate extract.

pectin, apple, green apple extracts. I love acai and pycnogenol. They just like feed acrimancia and our bifidos really, really amazing.

Freddie Kimmel (28:25.57)
Yeah. And is the bifido beneficial to your body's immune system response? Cause it's a, is it a balancer? Is that the mechanism of action?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (28:35.472)
sure what the mechanism is. That's a really great point. It's just the immune system. Babies have it. They're supposed to get it from their mom. But if mom doesn't have it, so several studies from UC Davis have come out, know, Western breast milk just doesn't have bifidos much in it. But the moms are unhealthy as well, as you can imagine, know, gestational diabetes and, you know, obesity and chronic inflammation, pre -cancer states, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (29:03.874)
Yeah. It's, it's again, it's coming up again and again, this is the theme, the idea of this, that we, heal generations backwards and forwards when we truly do the work on the gut, the nervous system, the mind, the spirit, the body. And that's never made more sense to me, especially as we're looking at, we're, we're, fostering forward the next generation where we're almost, when we, when we do it,

in this way, when we have a relatively clean terrain, we allow them to at least make their own mistakes, not carry seven generations into the next, which a Polaroid of a Polaroid of a Polaroid, which Weston A. Price talked about a lot, the copy of the copy of the copy is the degradation of the human genome. it's, mean, for me, it's like, look at the instances of chronic illness across the board.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (29:42.47)
Great.

Freddie Kimmel (29:55.394)
or autism, we could go on and on with these lists of numbers that are just skyrocketing.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (29:58.876)
But in your generation, we can change it like that as long as we persist on that and believe it. then.

Freddie Kimmel (30:01.956)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (30:06.936)
Yeah. Yeah. Talk, talk to me. Do you have a, do you have a mission within, within your platform when you've, because that's, that lights up fire me within our generation. can change it. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (30:18.92)
We can, and it probably starts with healing the earth. Mother Gaia, who's provided just, as you mentioned, like generations, 10, 14, 20 generations, if not millions of years of generations of resources and clean water for us. But now in just a quick instance, right, the last hundred years of industrial pollution, we've managed to like completely mess up.

You know, the water, food, glyphosate, rich, you know, brain water now on our organic crops and things. You know, we've really decimated the earth in ways that, you know, it's already in the sixth extinction, the sixth one. Yeah, it's us.

Freddie Kimmel (31:04.484)
Yes.

Yeah. So, so it's, it's scary and empowering at the same time. I always use this example. I have this one slide of a, of a, cause people ask me, a lot of consults I get are like, well, Freddie, what about, you know, a tech? Do I need technology? Do I need these outside of the box methodologies? And I would say normally if we lived, you know, 200 years ago, no, you don't, you don't need fancy stuff. But if we look at post industrial revolution, you know, 1979 to now 15 ,000 in

percent increase in glyphosate in the food supply. So it's almost like you do need some sort of like, your immune systems, like your shield, right? I'm going to, whatever I'm going to do, I'm going to fortify the shield. So when I do go out and I eat at a coffee shop and I know they have not done reverse osmosis on their water or whatever it is that I'm going to be prepared to meet the world where it's at.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (31:57.638)
Yeah, I'm like, I'm a fan of binders too. I didn't, used to be a couple of years ago and I could just tell dramatically how different it's just like you did recently, like adding it in.

Freddie Kimmel (32:07.342)
Yeah. Yeah. My friend, Jeff has this company called a Lego scan, which has a, do you know a Lego scan?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (32:13.39)
yes, I've heard Jeff's podcast. He's great. Yeah. I love a link.

Freddie Kimmel (32:15.736)
Yeah, so they, came over to the house and I've done HTMA, lots of toxicity tests. I've never, ever, ever, ever been high in aluminum. And mine was through the roof and I was like, and then everybody at the house, had a party over here. Everybody's was off the charts. I was like, what is this with Austin, Texas and aluminum? whatever you want to think about the narrative.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (32:26.022)
Hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (32:36.88)
wow.

Freddie Kimmel (32:39.83)
in texas they're doing some type of weather thing where they're putting like aluminum flakes in the sky to like get a better radar fix and it's documented on the government website they'll make little announcements when they're doing a dusting i was like i you just your your mind kind of goes you're like i wonder

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (32:39.859)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (32:55.206)
Right, right, right. Yeah, that's why I use a lot of psyllium. We need insoluble fiber and we also need cooked beans. Beans have whole grains. It's just like Western A Price. I used to be chapter leader for my little area in the Tri Valley area here in California. Yeah, and now the science is backing it up. The network of polysaccharides, they really act like binders like we would use for charcoal clay or colostiremin, let's say, or Welcoq.

Freddie Kimmel (32:56.622)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (33:02.894)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (33:11.549)
-huh, -huh.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (33:23.852)
They're like resin binders and they pull all the fat soluble toxins and maybe other ones as well too. So that includes glyphosate and many other ones, mycotoxins. Our flora like lactobacillus remnosus, this is also the highest in the industry when people take a tablespoon a day. Studies show that it's the cell wall of the bacteria here, the bifidose and the lactose, but particularly lactobacillus remnosus, they act like an ionic resin to pull mycotoxins.

but also even heavy metals and others. So if we look at our ancestors, you know, just a couple of generations ago, they ate a lot of vegetables and fiber, a lot of, you know, cooked resistant starches, beans and rice, whole grain beans, whole grain rice. And this is the ancestral diet of centenarians. No wonder they're so healthy. They're getting daily pulling, binding every day, three times a day. Yeah. And we have all sorts I said, we do need cooked beans. I really up my cooked beans intake.

Freddie Kimmel (34:14.02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (34:21.222)
because especially cram beans, because cans, you hyper steam them and pressurize them, the fiber under that processing is even more networked. And so they have higher densities for binding the toxins, mycotoxins and mold and glyphosate. Plus you don't have to cook them. So canned is my way to go kind of.

Freddie Kimmel (34:45.154)
Yeah. I miss beans, Grace. I really do. I will tell you, there's a lot of people on this podcast that also have had a lot of people that have been through going through severe Lyme disease, severe black mold, mycotoxins.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (34:58.31)
Yeah. You're in Austin. Everyone's going through mold. It's so fucking humid there.

Freddie Kimmel (35:02.584)
It's big. Well, I had mine, I bought an apartment in Jersey, which was floor to ceiling black mold. Somebody just slapped up a fake wall over mold. So it was six months of, you know, living in this apartment and really just added a very unique twist to my, opportunity to better know the drainage pathways to the body. The, the, solution for me, which one of the drivers of, of like,

I guess if I had a magic wand to wipe away, it's always been joint pain and it's not even joint pain. It's like tendon pain. If I fast for five days, Grace, I feel amazing, but there's only so many five day fasts can do in a row. Not that it's a therapeutic, right? I don't throw that away, but to keep up with my life schedule, it's challenging to do that all the time. So for me, eliminating...

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (35:55.228)
Maybe you don't want to be stressed during a five day.

Freddie Kimmel (35:59.392)
No, no, you want to be not doing work or answering your cell phone or posting on social media or doing a podcast. But the elimination of like, if I went and eat beans, my arthritis goes through the roof. Same thing with like any type of electin, obviously gluten, dairy. So these things I've removed.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (36:18.408)
For people going through mast cell activation, SIRS, mold and co -infections. This is the keystone flora. When people can, when they first started, one capsules a lot, they can't do it. But once someone can take a few pinches every other day or every three or four days, and then they can ramp it up slowly and take actually a full capsule, they've turned around. Their whole gut now can digest so much more food, diverse food.

Freddie Kimmel (36:21.453)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (36:47.388)
diverse prebiotics and starches and other foods. But the key is to get to one capsule a day. People in the beginning will not. Carnivores, when they start this, they poop blood. Is that normal? They're talking unnatural. Their gut is so broken. I'm like, my gosh, just, you know, let's work together. Let's just get a few protocols in. Let's see. Let's, you know, do the proper mold protection. It's like taking asbestos out of a house, right? You got to protect everything. You don't...

Freddie Kimmel (36:59.061)
god.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (37:15.686)
like the kids and dog are in the house, you got to first take them out, protect everybody. All the workers need to wear a mask and eye and respiratory apparatus going in. And then you demolish the place very carefully. And then you can fix the house. But you have keep in mind the mold's coming out. So it's very important to do liver support, Tudkuf needed, the bile, protect the bile.

Freddie Kimmel (37:35.428)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (37:44.264)
A lot of glutathione. I use a lot of peptides. Lorazotide is one of the best peptides. People can buy it through Limitless and they go to our website. We can share with them the VIP pass to get it because it's behind a firewall. But otherwise it's gut 15, G -U -T 15. But Limitless sells Lorazotide. It's one of my favorite research labs and their Lorazotide is really clean. All their products are really clean.

Freddie Kimmel (38:09.484)
for, yeah, tell me what, what lorazetide is.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (38:11.964)
Yes, so ratatide is a peptide. It's not a human bioidentical peptide. It's made from another animal actually. But it's been shown to help close the zonulin. And so it's just a superficial, amazing bionic band -aid. It's not to be taken forever. But what it does is it'll seal and heal the gut temporarily. That means more food, okay? People are pooping blood or with anything or starches or beans.

It just is a superficial band -aid until the immune system heals and that some of the biotoxins are taken off. The biotoxins are what's causing all this opening of the gut because mercury and mold, they're growth factors for other candida and fungi. These will go and infiltrate.

and just grow and make the most permeable gut lining. And so if you have leaky gut, you also have leaky gonads, leaky testicles, leaky penis, leaky ovaries, leaky brain, leaky thyroid. All the women get, and men get like thyroid nodules, you know, but we can heal all that. These are from oxalates, they're calcifications from fungi and candida. But if you have, we have five oxalate degraders in here. We lose this after antibiotics or stress.

And once they come back on board, they start to lower the oxalate count. Everyone has high oxalates. Again, we look at labs like the Organic Acid Test from Mosaic. My goal is the lowest quintile of the lab range, lowest quartile or quintile. So it's literally only 20 % of the lab range, which is what William Shaw, the founder of that company, original founder of the company, Great Plains Labs. That's what he saw in normal, healthy people. But we don't see that really.

Freddie Kimmel (39:59.246)
Hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (40:00.902)
We don't see that anymore because everyone's got some mold picture or candida picture after a few antibiotics.

Freddie Kimmel (40:06.722)
Yeah, yeah, I had had three years of oral doxy straight straight.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (40:10.538)
yeah, yeah. And if they go to a lot of traditional Lyme treatment, now they're on two, three antibiotics for two, three fucking years. Like, my God, did anyone give them a Fuconazole or some kind of antifungal or berberine? No. Well, why? Or a probiotic? No. So these Lyme docs are really doing a huge disservice setting these people up for cancer, more co -infections, unrelenting yeast and mold.

Freddie Kimmel (40:33.658)
Yeah. Yeah, that was my experience. It was always really hard to manage. And again, it's people had enough information to be dangerous. They knew parts of the story, but as, an evolving field and I don't know what right now, I think the CDC is saying 560 ,000 new Lyme diagnoses a year in the U S.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (40:55.208)
It's pretty weaponized sadly, but it's fault we have ways So when people have really good gut flora, like I've seen this in a lot of really healthy clients There are flora make amazing peptides. That's why this is the biggest peptide source I feel our microbiome because there's a hundred trillion and some of the peptides they make they're anti -spiracy That means they're anti -long, but you have to feed them so they can make a critical

Freddie Kimmel (40:57.528)
Yeah, yeah I know.

Freddie Kimmel (41:13.572)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (41:19.18)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (41:23.368)
threshold of concentration for us. so 30 to 50 grams of fiber is really probably kind of the minimum. You probably know Kyle Kingsbury in Austin, right? Yeah, we used to train at CSA, Combat Sport Academy. And he and his wife, you know, they came to me and they were like, my God, Grace, like, I'm glad you're not promoting the potato starch bullshit, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, I know that that was like for half a second before I read the studies fully. And they're like, yeah, we felt horrible on it. And they're like super healthy people.

Freddie Kimmel (41:32.858)
Mm

Freddie Kimmel (41:52.964)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (41:53.784)
know, he and his wife, and he's a former UFC and you know, UFC they have to cut weight, they go through pretty, you know, there's a new movie out called The Cut with my favorite Orlando Bloom. They're going to go over the massive shit they go through to cut the weights, like unnatural and really health, you know, health -defying kind. And so, you know, in fighting, it's stressful. Of course, the microbiome is going to break a bit, right? Or you have a couple surgeries. He definitely had had a couple surgeries like

Freddie Kimmel (42:08.762)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (42:22.504)
plate, you know, twice. You know, so he had surgeries and every time someone goes in for surgery, they're getting an IV antibiotic. So you're wiping out all the microbiome growing tons of yeast everywhere out of every orifice, toenails and everywhere. So he did our protocol. We did a little bit of weeding, you know, fungal and parasite and bacterial. And then a lot of our probiotic, was taking a tablespoon a day and then 32 grams.

Freddie Kimmel (42:31.407)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (42:51.24)
30 to 50 grams of fiber like inulin and psyllium and glucamanin and which is cone -jack root and a mix of other fibers like XOS, GOS, and all those good ones. And he told me, Grace, I feel so great. I stopped getting sick. I sleep like a baby, beautiful dreams. He's like, I wish I had this in my UFC fighting days. Everyone should be on it. So a lot of the fighters I work with.

they all go on this and then they feel it's just amazing. And it's probably something about that culture. They're rolling on the mats for Jiu -Jitsu and there's a lot of stuff growing on those mats and they're not using essential oils or natural things. It's more like bleach and gross stuff. So you're only selecting for the most toxic flora to remain there and then it gets all over and then they all get like ringworm and all kinds of bullshit.

Freddie Kimmel (43:35.918)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (43:47.664)
You know, it's, everything's connected. What's on our skin is in our gut. For women, what's in the vagina is also in the gut. What's in the gut is also in the vagina. And same with like sinuses, even your eye ducts and your nose, ear infections or so everything's really connected. So I believe in tongue to tail terrain management. Yeah. We'll start with peptides in the nose because those are the safest people don't react to them. So a really good one because it's depressing not being able to eat.

we do an antidepressant peptide called C -Lang with or without C -Max. These are found in cerebral lysine, which probably people have heard of. It's really great for CTVIs, brain injuries. By the way, with any brain injury, we have to heal that concurrently. Otherwise, it's again, just chasing the microbiome healing because when the brain breaks, the gut breaks.

Freddie Kimmel (44:35.832)
Yeah. My doctor, a nurse practitioner does infusions of Cerebro. and I've had great results with, and I was like, literally it can feel your brainstem like turning on and pulsing. was like, what is this? And I just got, this was last month. This is another, was like the month of like failed biohacks. I got ahold of injectables. I sure did. I got ahold of injectables and day four, this happened to me and my friend.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (44:41.713)
Yes.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (44:45.97)
Thank

mean,

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (44:56.936)
You learned about it. That's great.

Freddie Kimmel (45:05.796)
Day four, day five, he was like, are you really achy? I was like, I don't think so. He goes, dude, my whole body aches everywhere. And then he goes, I, then he's like, I think I'm getting the flu. I was like, dude, you're being it's, it's, it's a peptide. You're fine. Me day four, me day four, I shot it and I'm telling you an hour and a half later, I was on a podcast and I started, it was like, I started to shake like,

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (45:20.141)
You're like, I'm wuss.

Freddie Kimmel (45:31.674)
cold, like fever, flu, like full spine started to ache and I was down for two, three days. It was immediate. And both people told me they're like, I don't think that's right. I don't think that's possible. But if I look up cerebral lysine, sudden onset influenza -like symptoms is a counter indication. So what happened? What could have happened there?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (45:54.842)
Cerebral license from an animal, it's glandular. I don't really do glandulars with people until we clear the histamines and mast cell. And we don't do BPC, TB4. There's a list of contraindications. Because these turn on immunity. And for mast cell people, or those going through a mold and Lyme, and or Lyme, they're already having really high mast cell activation. So BPC and TB4 will turn on mast cells, which is good for normal people, but not good for...

Freddie Kimmel (46:03.128)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (46:22.371)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (46:23.314)
for someone who's already hyper activated for mast cells.

Freddie Kimmel (46:28.414)
So both of us are doing a detox protocol for Lyman molds. You know, it's both, of our history. So we both had that very acute, sudden onset influenza. It was wild.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (46:40.948)
Yeah, like if you happen to check my micro lab testing, you're going to see the antibodies that you make to mold. And the goal is to normalize those to a green zone because we're also exposed to mold. Like it's in the forest, you know, every time I go running, you know, the forest where I go, there's you know, some mold, but it's not a problem for me. But when I was really ill, I didn't feel well. I'd get like mini asthma. Our key is like, we're not going to not be around antigens.

Freddie Kimmel (46:51.043)
Hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (47:09.64)
The goal is not to react to them. It's about training the immune system. It's the nervous system, but the immune system is the gut and the flow of the air. Yeah. And once that's trained, it all flips and turns. And also the key is not to live in it, not to be breathing it eight to 12 hours a day. That's hard.

Freddie Kimmel (47:12.164)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (47:19.439)
Yes.

Freddie Kimmel (47:30.51)
Yeah. Audience question that I get a lot of times, you know, people will say, Freddie, I heard the podcast. I know mycotoxins. I know I have black mold. I know it's in the house. I don't have an option. have, I do not have the money to move. cannot get out. What would you tell to that person? Is it possible to get better in that environment?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (47:53.016)
We have a few clients, I'll tell you it's really an uphill battle, but what you can do is you can ozone different rooms while you're out of the house. What really good mold remediators do is they lay a frisbee worth of vinegar in different areas to kill the spores because vinegar is volatile.

Freddie Kimmel (48:01.486)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (48:17.744)
We make acetic acid, our flora have acetic acid, they make acetic acid. We get a layer of vinegar all over our terrain. That's what keeps things sterile from fungi, virus, bacteria, mold. So we can do the same. They lay these trays of vinegar out. Other things people can do is they can diffuse essential oils like these oil, but not be in the room when they're breathing it.

Freddie Kimmel (48:42.596)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (48:45.592)
just make sure there's like air filters everywhere. But that's not ideal, know, and cleaning out the HVAC everyone we have clients like that's a minimum thing they can do is clean the HVAC out and they'll find my god tons of black mold or whatever mold.

Freddie Kimmel (48:48.451)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (49:01.956)
Yeah. I've been running a test from got mold every, my house seems clean. I've run, I've tested twice, done the spore count, done the outdoor air, looked at the differential, didn't come up with anything negative, but I do have an ozone machine that I'll hit every, you know, every, every eight weeks when I'm not here. And then I haven't, I haven't aired, I have two air doctors in the house. the other one, my friends, my friends got one called IQ air, which is like all these pounds of carbon. That's really good.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (49:25.192)
So the.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (49:30.208)
That's, you know, all them are great. Yeah. The worst is the mold inside the host. Yeah. So our goal is to do the protocols to lower that count. And we start with the sinuses. So C -Lanc and C -Max. And then if there's tolerability to KPV, we don't inject it because usually that again will turn on histamines and mast cells. So, but we'll do it nasally. So that's basically topical.

Freddie Kimmel (49:35.3)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (49:41.966)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (49:55.942)
And KPV is anti -marcons, it's anti -mold as well as anti -candida. It's anti -fungal and anti -bacterial, especially bacterial to staph, the marcons. So we started to like change the biome here. And this is really important because this connects with the brain and it sends bi -directional messages to the gut.

The sinus is really important. Yeah. KPV is anti -inflammatory. You know, it's so, it's antiviral. We have clients and me as well. I'll make a salve with it, with maybe a few other peptides, any kind of, you know, wart or like rash or eczema or psoriasis, you know, we can put it on topically and it'll just like magically heal it, regenerate it to normal. KPV is like really bomb.

Freddie Kimmel (50:18.468)
Beautiful.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (50:48.538)
So we do it nasally and we'll do two to three months of it. And then we rotate different botanicals or Argentin, which is silver colloidal, to start to lower that burden here. And then we'll can dab like a little probiotic once or twice a week. That will recolonize. So we're recolonizing, resurrecting, as well as weeding and seeding all at the same time. But not at the same time. You don't want to be killing and put the probiotic. It's just, you know.

Freddie Kimmel (50:59.32)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (51:16.774)
separate by two hours and that'll be fine. But we have to split tongue to toes to really change the biome. If you can imagine, there's mold spores in mold people, like all over their body, their meridians and lymph. And they can live there. They will live there. Every breath may have some as well. They're living there. And it's a matter of like...

Freddie Kimmel (51:18.968)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (51:29.764)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (51:36.687)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (51:43.752)
changing that terrain. And then once the immune system comes back online, the immune system will take care of the rest. They're good at facial recognition. They'll find the invader and be able to safely eliminate it. But to bring it back online, there are some measures that help to get people there. If people tolerate, we do a little TA1, thymus and alpha 1. And again, that one, maybe 1 out of 10, 2 out of 10 mole of Lyme.

Freddie Kimmel (52:06.894)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (52:13.748)
Mass cell people won't tolerate that one, but most do. Most actually can do really well. But the key is getting in the flora again, because these make antimicrobial peptides. We call them AMP's. These peptides are what we really need long -term. Yeah, and then people can turn the corner.

Freddie Kimmel (52:34.394)
beautiful. Grace, what, you know, as we're talking about all these tools in the toolbox here and talking about taking different snapshots of the urine and the stool and the nasal passages, can people go through a program at the Gut Institute where this is laid out and tailored to some design?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (52:54.12)
Absolutely. Yeah, we have group programs that are really affordable. And then we have one -on -one, which is more hand holding and more customized because there's time to go over exactly precisely what might be root issues. I do believe in like the three B's, know, beliefs, you know, do they have self -limiting beliefs? Are they kind of more open to limitless healing and what they can envision or manifest, right? And then there's the biome.

and biology. So it's easy to do the biology. The other two are kind of trickier because people have to trust and then go through a protocol.

Freddie Kimmel (53:33.636)
Yeah. And what would you, do you have, know everybody's different and, I do like to have people understand just an approximation of the allocation of funds to go through like a program like this. How long would you, you know, we could pick an avatar. Let's say we could say somebody with a chronic illness has been sick for a while is probably going to be different than somebody that just wants to improve their longevity aspects. do you have an idea around those like?

idea of an investment.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (54:05.608)
Yeah. So I mean, depends on how deep people want to go. If they're looking for longevity, we'd spend a bit more on peptides actually, and bioregulators. that might be, depending on how deep people want to go, 300 to 500. Well, okay. There's no upward limit, 300 to 500 minimum, but you know, upward, you know, I've been on thousands of dollars of peptides, given, you know, given months to test different things, you know, and like for

Freddie Kimmel (54:12.697)
Mm

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (54:30.906)
human growth hormone secretogs, you really have to kind go through six months worth to kind of like see all the layers of shifts and changes as the foundations are relayed down. And same with all other peptides, same with all the peptides, there's a timeframe, because we've had so much inflammation for so long as a species, so it just takes time to like un -layer all those. But yeah, that's for peptides. But then when we're talking about supplements like probiotics or binders or healing and protection and detox.

Those can be 250 to 500 a month depending on what time frame and the protocol is. Then that's not even talking about the biohacking. I really recommend hyperbaric oxygen and access to sauna. Some people already have sauna from their gym as long as there's no mold there, that's okay. It doesn't have to be infrared, just plain sauna is also great as well. It doesn't have to be super fancy.

But yeah, depending on how fast people want to heal, yeah, I'd add in whole body PMF, pulse electron, depending on what their HRV is, maybe buy a bio -mat or other mats, like I love the PMF mats, like centropics and others. You have all different ways to kind of bring the healing so much faster, but they do add up. Like all these devices, you have your own, it's like 510K, I've been there. But they're so helpful and it'll...

Freddie Kimmel (55:47.228)
yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (55:52.632)
What about testing?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (55:54.524)
It'll save time on everything else. Testing, every two months it's good to have some blood and stool kit testing for sure. We do a baseline Ode on everybody, but I don't really run these again, because it takes forever to fix an organic acid. It really shows so much and it's a cumulative, you know, you know, test. It kind of adds everything up, right?

So it takes a long time to heal an organic acid, but once we see it heal like in six to 12 months, that's great. That's also when most chronic conditions are gone by then. Yeah, the OBE is harder to heal, but it gives a good snapshot.

Freddie Kimmel (56:31.642)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (56:36.09)
Yeah. I listen to you say all this and I'm reminded, you know, this is probably for the health enthusiasts out there. You know, this would be the work to do before you bought a $3 ,000 red light panel or the $10 ,000 PMF device that it's probably smart to work with this conversation between the internal microbes and the outside world, which is with you every day, all day, as opposed to, you know, the 20 to 30 minute treatment. I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (57:06.6)
Absolutely, absolutely. Or you can do it concurrently. I mean, they're like actual insistent, not a virtual assistant. They are our allies. They're as many cells as we are. We're 100 trillion cells, nucleated and non -nucleated cells. Our microbiome weighs as much as our brain almost, and they are 100 trillion cells. Yeah, you absolutely can't ignore them. And I think that's why people are such fans of carnivore and others, because they've ignored it.

Freddie Kimmel (57:09.999)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (57:33.404)
And they don't know, you they just think, I'm never going to eat kale again, another leaf of kale. But it's really because, know, they don't have oxalate degraders in their gut. There's way too much mold, way too much lime, way too many parasites, way too much SIBO. And it's overwhelming for people who don't know what they're doing or they're working with a practitioner where there's just like failure around every bend because they're not really getting the root issue. And early in my career, I mean, that's what I was doing. You know, people weren't getting better and I was really like frustrated.

because I didn't see the whole body burden for people. So, you know, checking out what the heavy metals are, checking out what the mold burden is. And, you a lot of people are really, they have really good snips and, you know, genetic variants. They don't detox fully. So you really do have to, we didn't use to provocate for mold. We used to provocate for heavy metals, as you know, if you did HTMA hair, right? But kind of have to provocate for everything now because there are a lot of people, they look fine and they...

Freddie Kimmel (58:23.492)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (58:30.738)
The testing looks fine, but if they're having so many health issues or they can't tolerate certain peptides, it's unnatural. There's something going on. And usually it's because there's no provocation of the toxin we're trying to find. It's so deep in the layers. You got to provocate for even a week and then measure with no binders. So we'll do like standard protocol, like glutathione one gram a day, know, sauna every day for a whole week every day. And then check no binders, no charcoal clay, nothing, no colostermine.

Freddie Kimmel (58:47.428)
Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (59:00.124)
no binders at all, and then go and check what's coming out.

Freddie Kimmel (59:04.036)
I've had people get a positive Lyme doing a sauna every day a week after testing negative with a Vibrant that after a week in the sauna, they've had a positive result with Spirochetes. It was really interesting. I've seen that come up a couple of times.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (59:17.54)
Everyone's got spirochetes. Everyone's got Epstein -Barr. Everyone's got CMV. And the sad thing is because of spike and whatever is causing so much immunosuppression, they're not expressing it in ways that we can measure. So I found a couple of spike studies. They were long haul and they had Epstein -Barr, but it wasn't in the normal tissue reservoir we would test, like sperm for antibodies or antigen. They were somewhere else.

Freddie Kimmel (59:19.022)
Yeah, right.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (59:47.238)
you know, but still affecting the system. It's like mold, you know, or okay, you know, the best, best analogy is like a bee sting allergy. The first couple of times people have bee sting allergies, they don't have, they don't have much of reaction, right? But by like, let's say fifth or sixth, it's getting to anaphylactic, lethal levels, now like each exposure, they get more and more throat swelling, more and more lip swelling, more and more throat closure.

Freddie Kimmel (01:00:05.914)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:00:14.674)
where you require an EpiPen, right? But the first couple of times, nothing. So that's the same with mold. We have to heal the immunoglobulins, the response to the toxic antigen, whether it's B, venom, or a mold. Because even though you're not around mold a lot, but each time, let's say you get re -triggered at a really high, it's highly exacerbated, you're just getting more more lethal. Your body's getting hyper alert. That's not gonna be great.

Freddie Kimmel (01:00:44.11)
Mm -hmm.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:00:44.954)
Yeah. So the key is the nervous system. We heal a lot of people actually with bee sting allergies, lethal, lethal food allergies and stuff, just one or two months of protocols. And I didn't even have peptides back then. but the key again is why is the immune system hyper alert? It's usually cause they're, missing these flora. It's to bring these back in. Yeah. That'll calm, it. Yeah. Cause we're going to always be exposed to mold. We're always going to be exposed to different antigens, gluten or dairy and food or whatever.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:04.056)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:01:12.72)
And the key is just not having that expression.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:16.302)
Yeah. Yeah. I just, want to celebrate everything you've said. just, we're on exactly the same page. I'm reinvigorated every time I talk about gut and the microbes. like, it's a focus, but man, it's sure. It's like the biggest base of the pyramid in the body. It just really is.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:01:34.488)
It's exactly, biggest space in the pyramid. That's exactly it.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:38.488)
Yeah. Yeah. I have so many, so many thoughts that I want to go into. I want to keep it at an hour and I want to have you back on because there's so many, I want to actually, I want to also invite people to write in questions when you hear this podcast, please submit questions. can DM, you can go to beautifully broken dot world. can DM on Instagram, tick -tock YouTube. We'll put this everywhere. and we'll definitely do a round two only if you're up for that grace.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:02:05.64)
I think it'd be fun. I love problem solving with people.

Freddie Kimmel (01:02:08.92)
I would love to do some testing with you guys and I'm happy to transparently talk about my results, both good or bad or however horrendous we find them on the episode. So we should definitely, we'll make time for that. And one thing I want to add in is that this piece we've touched on, but we haven't gone deep is this idea of vagus nerve, the mind. I find that for me, like the limbic loop,

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:02:29.69)
Yeah!

Freddie Kimmel (01:02:34.17)
When I wake up and do have a response, if I travel somewhere weird and I have a weird symptom or I know I'm in black bold and I can't get out, I'm at a conference at a hotel room. If I can just take that thought and I can just set it to the side or just a little bit to the back and not let it overwhelm my brain with fear. It's such a quick turnaround. Like what used to set me back for two months might be a day and a half, 48 hours, and I'm good. And that was never the case. And it's that limbic system.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:02:34.312)
Yeah.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:02:42.599)
right?

Okay.

Freddie Kimmel (01:03:03.642)
telling me that this is a level 10 threat and I'm knowing I've worked through it a hundred times before and I'm going to be okay. Just that in it and me writing it out before I go to bed. It's magic. It absolutely works.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:03:17.742)
you hit on it. Yeah, it's our mind. We are really powerful to manifest anything. Yeah, is a powerful tool.

Freddie Kimmel (01:03:23.524)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:03:26.946)
Yeah, it is. So Grace, the Beautifully Broken podcast, this idea that we're using these times we fall down as a catalyst for growth. What does it mean to you to be beautifully broken?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:03:40.588)
one of my good guy friends, wrote a song. It was called, Will Break You. And know, life is messy. It's beautifully broken. Everyone. If they're not sharing it, it's probably because they're hiding it, right? And I feel sorry for them. Like they have to spend, it's exhausting to spend all that energy trying to hide something. And that's life, you know? And that's living.

So I try to embrace more and more of it. It's sometimes a challenge, you know? But I feel liberated the more and more I do it. And my gut feels better.

Freddie Kimmel (01:04:21.818)
And then if you had a magic wand, you can tune in all the iPhones of the world into channel Dr. Grace. And you had a minute to talk to the people, the planet right now. What would you say to the people of planet Earth at this time when we're alive?

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:04:35.908)
planet Earth. We hope to support planet Earth. if we can help to support her in any way, let us know by cutting back on pollution, using our resources the best way without exhausting them. How do we clean up the Earth now that it has this saturation of different toxins that don't really biodegrade?

industrial mercury and arsenic, lead, and high concentrations of petrol, pollutants, and plastics, and all the plastics and microplastics and glyphosate that is just eroding everything. So yeah, how we can show our gratitude, that would be just beautiful. And if we can all band together for this, that would just be amazing.

Freddie Kimmel (01:05:28.228)
Yeah, I love it. And Dr. Grace, tell us one more time where people can find you and your information and all the supplements, what website.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:05:38.876)
We are at thegutinstitute .com and reach out anytime. You can call us or email us info at the Gut Institute. We'd be so happy for you to try our Gut Reset or other programs to heal. And hopefully everyone can feel they're optimal and be able to live their passions and do all the things that they really love and long for in their heart.

Freddie Kimmel (01:06:04.538)
Beautiful. Beautiful. love it. Thank you for being a guest on the beautifully broken podcast. It was my treat. Thank you, Grace.

Dr Grace Liu PharmD (01:06:11.76)
You are amazing, Freddie. Thank you so much for having me on. What a sacred honor. Thank you, thank you.

Freddie Kimmel (01:06:14.796)
Yes. Big love.