Modern Mom's Gap year: Part 1 with Scott and Cathy Whelehan

This episode will resonate with families across the world. These three friends explore the limitations of the current marriage contract, how Cathy and Scott have created a third option between breaking up and pushing through, why love isn’t enough, and so much more. No matter whether you are in a new relationship, long-term relationship, or seeking your partner, this episode will open your eyes in this raw and personal look at a relationship at the crossroads. This episode will speak to your heart.

Episode Highlights

1:43 - The unique and challenging place Cathy and Scott find themselves

4:27 - Navigating your relationship after your children leave the house

7:27 - Finding space to grieve and process during major transitions

9:59 - Adjusting to a completely different relationship model

13:05 - The limitations of the current marriage contract

18:03 - "We're really great at fighting."

21:41 - Managing outsiders’ view of your relationship when modeling out of the norm

23:21 - Creating a third option between breaking up and pushing through 

30:06 - Why love isn't enough

38:27 - The vision for this new relationship paradigm

41:19 - Heal the family, heal the country

43:01 - How we're entangled on a quantum level

44:31 - What does it mean to be beautifully broken?

46:57 - Advice for young couples

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (00:03.308)
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Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (00:37.391)
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beautifully broken podcast. We have a very special episode today. I think this is really going to resonate with families across America and other parts of the world. We have Cathy and Scott Wheelhand. Cathy and Scott, welcome to the show. Thank you, Freddie. Thanks, Freddie. I'm really excited you guys are here. We're going to talk about relationships. We're going to talk about the family bond. We're going to talk about

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (02:42.478)
What is the modern model of a family and is that defined in one specific way? I have a lot of areas we're going to go with this episode, but I wondered if you couldn't start out with telling me a little bit about your family and where you live and some of the special challenges your specific family unit has gone through. Where to begin? So we live in Redding, Connecticut. We have three children.

two in college and one still at home as a sophomore in high school, which is a fun and adventurous time in life. We've had a lot of health challenges, particularly with our older children. And I think to some extent that's, you know, defined sort of the journey and a lot of our challenges over the past, boy, how many years, decades if you include our oldest son, Quinn. So they're gone and doing their own thing and thriving.

from college and it's a bit of an inflection point, it feels like in the family right now. Kathy, you want to add to that? We can get a little specific on what happened with Allie and Quinn. Well, we've suffered from the effects of Lyme disease basically. So starting back in like, know, 1999, I mean, I think I was sick with Lyme for many, many years and then maybe I passed it to Quinn.

but he probably got bit. He was a youngster and he started limping and it just led to all sorts of challenges. He ended up with spinal arthritis and it was a long road. It was a really long road, lots of specialists. And right when we found a good medication for him, about a year later, Allie started getting sick. She ended up long-term with neurological Lyme and that was pretty intense. So we tried a lot of different things and it led us to...

the amp coil, we found the amp coil technology and that kind of, not kind of, but really shifted everything for our family into a new paradigm of wellness. And here we are today in that new paradigm. Yeah, here we are today. I think that's, it's a parents who have shepherded their children through chronic illness. It's a very, very unique relationship.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (05:05.064)
And like Scott said at the beginning of the podcast, here you guys find yourself. have one child left in the household who's a healthy little dude. I hang out with Riley all the time. And you have two children that are living life their way. They left home. There were points, I know, know, Kathy's been a guest on the podcast. Ali's been a guest on the podcast where we had mentioned that you

seriously consider that she would be homebound and you would be taking care of your child for the rest of your life. So you guys find yourself in a unique situation, right? Look at all the amazing work you've done to care for your children above and beyond. We've mentioned this before, you've spent over a million dollars to get your children well. it's, you know, there are repercussions to that that happen. And now we find ourselves in this location where

you guys are, you're left without those sick kids to immediately shepherd. You know, there's more, there's more space. You know, it's almost like you have this space to start to feel things. I just want to ask how, how have things evolved in the last three to four months between you guys and your relationship? Awkward silence. No. so

Since, I guess, the late summer fall, it's been a very sort of exciting and intense time within various components of our life. I think that Kathy and I, who, I mean, we've been together since we were in some form or fashion, like 13 years old. So we have a long history together, long and intense and dynamic and passionate history.

And so sometimes that spark can catch fire in a less positive way, which happened sort of this fall. And we struggled and it kind of pulled back away from each other. And something really needed to shift. Something needed to shift. And we were sitting in therapy.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (07:22.024)
with our daughter, our daughter's therapist, just doing a little sort of family therapy over the holidays. And she turned to us and asked, hey, what's going on with your relationship? You guys seem pretty frosty. And I took the liberty of responding on behalf of both of us. And Allie had been on a gap year prior to college. So this is her first year of college, and she was on a gap year in Asia and Africa.

have a real vivid memory of Kathy and I dropping her off at the airport and like just this lonely security line, her and her backpack, and we're all crying and she's sailing off into the sunset as it were. It was a special time. And I said to Ali, I said, Ali, remember that day that we dropped you at the airport and waved goodbye for a year? She said, if mom had her druthers, we would leave therapy right now and drive her to JFK airport with her backpack.

And we would send her on a gap year and you know what? She probably deserves a gap year and that's kind of where things are at. And so we're, you know, trying to figure out how to create space, space in our life and our relationship given this interesting place we find ourselves in. Cathy, you were, you were in that therapy session and something must've clicked in your head and sparked and

What was your action step out of that? Well, first I felt validated. mean, he said that and I resonated completely with it. And I had already been working through the process for myself, which had started in the fall after sending our second child off to college. I felt grief like I hadn't really felt. I think in some ways through the whole process of caring for

chronically ill children, I was always the beacon of light saying, we're going to get through this, we're going to get better. And I didn't allow myself time to grieve the loss of what we didn't get to do, how we didn't get to live as a family because of the chronic illness. And there were really good times. Don't get me wrong, we have a great life, but there was a lot of darkness too. And there was an ebb and flow to it where you never knew when the next episode was going to hit. And so you tried to

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (09:44.446)
enjoy the life that was good when it was good because chances were pretty good the other shoe was going to drop and you'd be back in the ER, know, scrambling to find some relief. So I think the fall was a lot of grieving for me and I didn't really understand it and I had to work through it. So by the time December had come around and we were in this place of difficulty in our relationship,

I just felt like if I didn't get some space for myself, I was going to implode. That's how it felt like a losing of myself. So what did you do? So I found a place to live so that I could start to create more space for myself. Yeah. And I think the hard part, I guess I'll just name it.

cause it's the elephant in the room. The hard part is that I decided to do this on my own and I didn't, I didn't talk to Scott about it. didn't seek, you know, consensus or permission. And, know, part of that was based on what was going on in our relationship for me. So, we're on the other side of we're working through that. So Scott, did, how did that,

just for lack of a better word, how did that feel when you found Cathy had made this decision on her own that deeply affected you guys? Yeah, it's been a bit of a sort of conflicting set of feelings because on one hand, and I even felt sort of this gap year comment and realization as sort of this epiphany for myself of sort of really understanding what

was going on with her. So on one side of things, I totally embrace and understand and support and even agree with the whole process, Painful as it is because there's a sort of pulling apart and obviously an enormous change. Even though it's just miles away, it's a different

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (12:11.766)
whole different model and a whole different family setup. So super supportive, embracing, touched on one hand, and then on the other hand, because I didn't have the opportunity to support her during the decision-making process and sort of it felt deceptive and kind of behind my back. You know, that's the part that

It's, you know, sort of gnaws a little bit. It's just that pittier stomach thing where, you know, we're still working through it because I am all in and I totally embrace and support this whole process and not just for her. mean, you know, it's good for both of us. I mean, I've been, it's been a tremendous gift to have the space that we both clearly needed. But...

you know, that sort of gnaws at me. And so it's just this process of, you know, kind of putting that aside and getting on with what's important. And that's really learning and growing through this gap year process. And it's the, you know, as we jokingly titled the future book, it's the modern mother's gap year. you know, and it's a thing and I get it. And I feel like it's actually

sort of this innovation that is going to be good for us no matter how turns out. And I think we're interested just as students of relationships, we're obviously interested to see how it turns out because it means a lot to us, but also just the fascinating potential for this process to see where it could go. I think part of the hope and sitting down and having some of these conversations is maybe there's something here that other people

will find useful and a way to work through what's probably not an unusual challenge in a long-term relationship. I would say anybody who's driving their car right now and is in a relationship that feels like you're suffocating and drowning, just go ahead and grip the wheel a little tighter. Maybe roll down the window. Roll down the window. You can pause this podcast and scream. So this is a thing, right? You know, we have a way we divide, we...

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (14:33.452)
divinely enter into marriage, these long-term relationships, and then there's a definition around that, what you're supposed to do, what you signed up for as far as a contract. Let's talk a little bit about the contract of marriage. And Kathy, because you're an interfaith, interspiritual minister, I'd love you to just give me your gut take on that. You know, what exists now and what the limitations are. Yeah, I mean, I think that

For me, where I sit on this day, and I've been saying this for a while, but it's true more than ever, I think we should be committing to each other every day. I think it's unrealistic to say, no matter what happens, no matter how much I change or how much you change over the years, I'm going to stay no matter what. Because what I think

it sets up is a relationship of, there's an aspect of coping through things, which I understand part of that is real. Like when you have a chronic illness or a member of a family, like you don't abandon them. But there's also very codependent behavior that can intertwine and cloud our vision. And I think that

that when in our generation, especially, think now the millennials are doing it differently from what I can understand and talking to them. But in our generation, you know, we were sort of following the footsteps of that we repeated a lot of the patterns from our parents. And some of that was that there were unconscious agreements of roles and responsibilities. And I think if you were to talk to any woman my age or around my age,

They would say, yeah, I didn't sign up for that. And the men too probably like, we get put into these roles and they're accepted and we don't actually talk them through. Like, well, here's what I'm willing to do. What are you willing to do? How do we flush out the responsibilities from finances to housework to childcare to, it's almost as if you just find yourself in it. And

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (16:55.852)
I think now that I've performed a couple weddings, I invite the couples to do is really write a contract ahead of time. It's not just vows. It's, what is it you really want individually? And then come together with what it is you want based on these questions about your life and who you want to be and see where do they overlap and how do you build a vision for your

coupled them for your togetherness based on who you are as individuals. And I think we tend to lose ourselves in, you the love, you fall in love, you know, everything's so great and you, but there's not real conscious conversation about what the unspoken agreements are and make them conscious. Scott, do you want to add anything to that? No, I mean, I think that all resonates.

And one of the things that I would say is we've created now jumping into this new model, the space to maybe recraft some of those agreements. I think there's just something about the day to day where, maybe this is what Cathy was alluding to, you're just so wound into the day to day that it

is so hard to keep perspective on things. And so I've found that being apart, even, you know, we're just getting into this process, gives time to reflect on little things and large things, large things, including how much I love my wife. I not that I didn't know.

Of course I know how much I love my wife, there's something about, know, absence makes the heart grow fonder. I guess there's a version of that, but just having the space to reflect and appreciate and rise above the day-to-day knits. we, you know, we're awfully skilled. We're like two lawyers going at it when we fight, you know, it just, we get lost in the, in the courtroom, you know, of those fights.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (19:11.852)
We do. Thank you very much, Freddie. No, it's really impressive. I wish others around the world could be invited in your home. Because I'm always, like, wow, we've got this like IBM Pricewaterhouse human resources on one side. We got this inner faith, inner spiritual yoga guru on the other side. And it's sort of, you know, you watch them go, you're like, good. good point. It is true. And of course.

It's hard to self-acknowledge that that's not the game. We're great at the wrong game and having the space to step back and reflect has been really notable. And on the marriage front and the definition of marriage, it's this institution that sort of been created and that we do find all these roles.

And so I think we're exploring that because we have different parental role models between our two parents, which are very visceral because we grew up with one another. it was like having two sets of parents. So we almost have this shared experience and yet very different role models. And I don't know what to make of it all. And my parents' relationship certainly had its challenges.

enjoy sitting back and talking to my dad about when I visit with him. But the thing that I am most recently aware of is my mom passed away over the summer after a battle with Alzheimer's and she

She probably should have gone into a home years before she did, but my dad was so committed to her and just supported her unconditionally in the later years of her life that I'm just awe-inspired. As most people that know him, it was just such a special thing to watch.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (21:23.79)
I don't know that that's marriage or that's a vow or that's a contract or whatever that is, but that just commitment and watching that play out in the waning years of my mom's life was pretty cool. so there's whatever that is, is something that I know that I value in a relationship. I think we're working through sort of the vernacular and the values around how these things

fit into place and how our views are the same and how they differ. Yeah, I actually, it's funny when you were telling me that story, I watched my, you know, both sets of grandparents. My grandmother passed away of glioblastoma and my mom, you know, she really took that last year. You know, she did everything for my grandmother who had to think at the end, you know, the use of one arm because of the surgeries and the treatment. And, you know, she

life was on hold and she like, you know, every time ground went to the bathroom, she was like right there in it. And I was like, my God, that's love. And then my grandfather who, who passed away of some type of cancer, they didn't really know he was like not interested in going to the hospital. But you know, I remember them just like, it's getting him in and out of the bathtub. It was just like incredible. this, the family, you know, what you, what you do, this bond.

I want to jump to a different view of this. How do you think other couples within your circle of friends, your community view you guys? How do you think they view your relationship from the outside?

I mean, I think our friends, we've done a lot of work on our relationship. We've been to many.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (23:19.47)
open-hearted listening workshops. We actually went to or given one as a wedding gift before we got married. we've done a lot of couples therapy. We have practiced compassionate communication, nonviolent communication. We've got a lot of tools in our tool belt. So I would think that people would say that

they would be surprised that we were doing this in some ways because, well, we have all of these tools. Can't we apply them to whatever is going on? And we've always seemed to be able to do that in the past. But I would say that they might also

be interested in coming along on the ride with us because it's an interesting, it's a really interesting paradox. We, we love each other deeply. This is not about not loving each other. This is about being more conscious in relationship and respectful and allowing each other space to grow apart from each other. Yeah, that's

I again, you know, I the only thing I can compare it to is being in a relationship where after a while, the only thing you can see in that other human being is hate. Like the way they chew their mouth open, like the way they talk, their answers. my God, that's a stupid way to respond to that question. You know, and you just start to I'm not sure. I'm not I haven't done all the work that you guys have done. But like, I remember being in some some of these patterned responses where

It wasn't even rational. I was just annoyed by everything because all I could envision was space. But for me, it was, it's always been hard for me. if I was in a relationship when I knew I wanted space, I wanted to like step back and just breathe. I'm like, I'm either break, I'm we're breaking up or I'm pushing through. It was option one or it was option two, you know?

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (25:29.07)
Well, I mean, that's really interesting because I think for me, the process when I was going through the turmoil this fall, specifically like November, December, I kept saying, and I wrote it in my journal, I don't want door one and door two. Like society gives us these two choices, separation, divorce. And I just kept saying, I want door three.

Why can't I have door three? Why can't there be another way to do this? Where we enter into a process where we're not making a decision based on other people's, you know, the way it's always been done before. I think we're living in a really interesting time where we have to be asking ourselves some of these questions. And, you know, I mean, the three questions in yoga are, what do you want? How bad do you want it? What are you willing to do about it? And I think I felt

I got to a place where I felt I had to be, if I was going to be in integrity with myself, I had to answer those questions. And I knew that if I stayed, it would be for the wrong reasons and that I would become more more resentful. Hi friends. I hope you're loving the show. Let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors.

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Because it's who are you staying for? Exactly. You're saying for those that have gone before you and say, this is the way it's done. This is the way we work through things. You grind it out no matter what. Scott, can you add onto that? when you're, you know, put yourself in the situation where you feel, I'm sure, like we said, we gave Kathy the space to say, well, she had this, yeah, I want to gap your in her head. And she's nodding and say, I've already thought about that. you're

your therapy session where we kind of had this aha moment and things were moved into change. had you had those thoughts, you know, over the last, you know, decade, 15 years of, of needing an another option? think that the notion of another option resonates conceptually because you see how the same patterns don't work. for sure.

I also think that I tend to be fairly committed when I sort of focus on something and certainly my marriage is one of those things. so, you know, it's funny, I don't think I shared this with Kathy, but when we were in that therapy session and we kind of did this reference to the gap year, which, you know, when I said it, I think it just resonated for both of us. even though interesting like Eli, Ali are and

even Quinn are too old, they're not here. They're like, hey, that's great, mom and dad. They're not really fazed by any of this. I think at that time when we were in that session, Ali was looking for some sense making and we shared the Gap Your Thing. And I was going to say, after that, was going to say something to the effect of, and Ali, I want you to know that whatever's going on with your mom and I,

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (30:06.015)
We are as much in love today as we were when we were, you know, crazy kids. And in fact, even more so, I think. And that I'm going to do everything I can to honor mom and make this, marriage work. Cause that's just what I believe. And I didn't say it, the conversation kind of went a different direction. You know, how sometimes you get something in your head. And what's interesting is that that's now no longer true.

And I think it's sort of part of the process of letting go is that, you know, I'm struck. have these two sort of train coming at me realizations as I've been processing a lot of this. And one is just, you know, how much I love Cathy. Like how can I love her more after this and after everything like I love her more? Like, how does that make sense? You know, I've just been blown away by that.

And the other realization is that I just don't know that we can or should be together. And, you know, I think part of it is different value systems, know, different role models from our parents. I think that there's just a lot of different beliefs and, you know, we've, it's been a bit of a pattern for us. And so I think that what's been really healthy is

we don't know how this is going to end. think that before this process started, if you, you know, I would have had that conviction that I was ready to articulate to my daughter, because I've always had that to the death conviction that we were going to, you know, make the marriage work. And I don't actually think that the marriage is going to work. And that's okay. And I'm sort of letting that go. Well, at the same time,

Because I've got to reconcile these two things that I'm crazy in love with this woman that I'm not sure we can be together long-term. Like all I know is right now is that I'm fully committed to being in this and however it works out, I want at the end of this year or whatever this thing is for us to sort of look at each other and see each other in our highest light. that, you know, if we decide not to be together that we're

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (32:28.949)
doing it clear-eyed and, you know, we're choosing or not choosing or defining or not defining our relationship with one another in our highest light. Don't know how it's going to turn out. Scott said, I don't know if we should be together long-term. That popped for me and...

And then it's also echoed on like the left over here. The Beatles are like, all you need is love. All you need is love. All you need is love. So explain to me, because you, you know, you coach people and guide people through this as a, as a, as a minister. I just might've answered my own question. All you need is love. Why, why isn't that enough? I mean, I guess it's based under the idea that like being in love means you have to stay together and

And that's what's sort of programmed into my brain. like, well, if you love each other, then you work it out. But maybe you, maybe that's what you guys are figuring out right now. Maybe, maybe you can't rely on what the end game is. Will you go, you would lead with love today. I want to make myself cry right now. think that's what I mean by committing each day. It's like committing to love each day. And that starts with ourselves.

And when we get into really negative patterns with our partner who we love, where we realize that we don't like the person that we are in those patterns, how we show up, and we've done all of this work and it doesn't change, something has to shift. So in this situation,

getting the space is giving both of us perspective on owning. A really good friend of mine says to me, you can only own 100 % of your 50%, right? In any situation that you're in. Sometimes when you're deep entangled in it, you can't see it for what it is. And when you're on the blame game train, right? And we're very good at being right.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (34:52.225)
I'm right. know. you have to tease that apart. I mean, we just were in, we were just on the phone on the way here. We were each in our cars driving here and we had had, you know, an argument last night that came into this morning. We were trying to work through it and there was a point we made this incredible progress and then we got to this point and I was like, well, we need to stop right here.

because we just started to move into the analysis and right and wrong. So we just tabled it. We put a pin in it. It's all so subjective. So subjective. And it's only space. And I would say, I call it spiritual practice. It doesn't matter what you do to get centered and spend time with yourself and the God of your understanding, but...

you you've had more time for meditation, it gives me some space because when you're the mom, you become the caretaker and you're doing everything. And that's part of owning my stuff too. Like I don't have to do everything. So in getting the space and being able to get the distance, it becomes less subjective, I guess I would say. And we get insight into ourselves, which we had this conversation the other day.

I pray for best and highest outcome. And we even said like, who, if we end up with other people, boy, aren't they lucky because they're going to get the benefit of all this work that we've done. And isn't that a good thing that we bring more love into the world in whatever way we're meant to? So that's my, that's my answer to that. How's that feel for you, Scott? Yeah, no, it's

It totally resonates and I just have to watch my use of humor and sort of using some of those, you know, dynamics to try to make light of our context sometimes. But yeah, I think that we're making great progress even in the brief time that this has been underway that I think we've intended in the past, but you just, you're on top of each other.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (37:15.505)
we're not and feeling better about ourselves because it is about tearing the tentacles apart a bit to understand where the lines of demarcation are. And I think we're starting to do that. It's a bit iterative and it is messy at times, just like the fight that we had this morning. it's...

different qualitatively because we're, okay, time out, go back and process that and then we'll reconvene in the morning. And there was never, I think, a space or an understanding that that was how to go about this. You can see it even in how we are dealing with some of these things that come up because they're going to come up. It's not going to be easy. There's nothing easy about it.

for sure, but it's rich and feels just...

super needed and super worthwhile and super honorable, I think, be making headway in a way that we haven't. mean, it's selfishly for me. I've mentioned this multiple times. I'm living with Kathy and Scott up in Redding, Connecticut. And for me to go through this

separation with you into a new phase, I think it's very healthy. I mean, as an observer, I'm watching you guys work through it. And you know, sometimes I'm the ref on the sidelines. And sometimes I'll step in and say, Hey, can I offer this to how you interjected that idea was real harsh. You know, it's, it's really, it's really, it's an incredible gift for me.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (39:14.495)
You know, it's and it's I'm here, you know, 42 years old, still single, never been married, not looking like it's going to happen right now because I'm committed to some other stuff in my life. But to have a living like nativity of people making conscious choice to just breathe, take a step back and look at what's on.

Look what's on the playing table. And again, we're, you know, it's, it's, we're given this, you, you separate and you divorce or you're in the marriage and you're suffocating and one of you goes and cheats. God, that's an awful situation or you're in a marriage and you're suffocating and one partner starts to rely heavily on substance abuse. You know, there's always something like, I'm sure everybody on this podcast can

that's listening right now can examine and go back to a time when you were suffocating and gasping for air and you could have made the choice to just pull out the flag. Let's stop this for a second before one of us does something that's going to hurt everybody and everybody else in the interwoven community and just like, let's take responsibility for this. So it's been really amazing to watch and

You know, I just think this is a thing. This has everything to do with what's going on right now in our society, our inability to argue effectively or bring our opinions to the table. And there's right or wrong. It's pretty much it right now. And you're with me or I'm outraged at you because you don't see it the way I see it. So what's next? Literally, what's next? Yeah. Where are you guys at? Like, what's the vision? Do you have a...

Do you have a short term timeline or are we just feeling into this space? We're feeling in for sure. It's a year by definition and by lease. It's a gap year. So that's about as far as we've gotten in terms of definition. Well, we go to therapy still every two weeks together. We do. And tonight we're...

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (41:41.537)
going to a concert together, not because it happens to be Valentine's Day as we recorded it. So I'm going on record. It ain't a date. We're just going to a concert together. So that's next. The other thing that's next is I'll concede that this is what we've been fighting about over the past 12 hours is no matter highest vibe and highest intention, there's some things about this that are challenging.

Cathy moved out and moved into a new house, a new place. And I have yet to see it. And so that's been sort of this, a little bit of a dance, like, she going to invite me over? is it my place to say I want to see it? So there's some awkwardness to that in a way. so before we go to the concert, Cathy, during this...

discussions this morning, said, well, do you want to come over tonight? And so I'm going to stop over and see her new place. And I'm going to, in the spirit of trying to like really lean into this, because we don't, I don't want there to be awkwardness around, you know, and I think some of the history of how the decision evolved sort of, you know, gives me some annoying kind of hindrance in my ability to fully show up. And I'm trying to move past that. So I'm going to also

stop and come up with something at Whole Foods and make her dinner at her house as a housewarming gesture. that's super cute. That's about when you say what's next, like that's about as literal. We're going to make dinner and go to a concert and that's the plan. I'm going to, I'm just going to ask it because why not? And we might not even publish this podcast. This might just be for us in a time capsule.

But I hope at one point we do. Because again, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had. I think it's as important as any political leader we're trying to elect right now. Like, what if we were to heal the marriage? What if we were to heal home? I think that's really, really powerful. is our physical relations off the table in this new agreement?

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (44:08.105)
Right now. Right now. It's a component of our relationship that has never been a problem. Thankfully, fact, I might say sort of the contrary. So I think that would be complicating and it is officially off the table until it's not, but it's definitely off the table. Yeah. I remember one of the first times I came here,

from New York to stay for a weekend. And Kathy was like, Oh, Scott is a great lover. was like one of the first like half hour conversations we had. She shares that with all of our guests. She does. Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think it's amazing. I think that's amazing. You know, as a, as a, um, I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's a piece of my own evolution, but like my greatest fear.

and something that would run like a bad movie in my head. Whenever I would break up with a significant would be that they'd be with somebody else. Like that image, like there's movies, but there's a movie called High Fidelity with John Cusack. love that movie. it's one of the best movies ever. And just he, you know, he, they show him writhing around in the sweaty sheets, waking up with these images of his, you know, significant out there. And it's like, it hurts because this is one thing we don't talk about.

And this is not what this podcast is about, you're entangled with that other human on a quantum level. You really do feel things on whichever way you want to look at it. You want to call it a spiritual attachment. You want to look at it through quantum physics. You're entangled with that person. I think even more deeply entangled when you're engaging in that physical relationship. So I feel like that choice is smart.

To add to that, I think, and so thankful that our physical intimacy has been such a positive in our relationship, but the challenge is that, and there's a joke that came up in therapy that I'll refrain from, that when it's really, because it's often really good, it sort of makes the lows harder relative to sort of the trust and intimacy contrast.

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (46:33.825)
For Cathy in particular, it's like, how can we be so connected and have such a connected intimacy and then fight the way we do? And that contrast was almost like just too much cognitive dissonance. So we sometimes joke that my wife left me because the sex was too good. I think that's That's not quite accurate. That's But it's also not untrue either.

they, healthy, healthy levels of ego and both Scott and Kathy in the best way. I think that's a good spot to stop. And what I'd like to do is, is just call this, I think what I want to manifest as a series. You know what I mean? Like one, two, three, four, and just, think it would be great to release these in a series like every couple months, you know, and just see where we're, where we're at in our progress. Cause

the beautifully broken podcast. You know, it's all about putting these broken pieces back together or redefining what you are to be whole. I just made that up. It's the coffee. It's the process. That's what we're talking about. So to let people have an example of this process, I really think it's going to be a good thing. And I wondered if you couldn't

each answer for me to close for this version. What does it mean to you to be beautifully broken, Kathy? Well, I mean, I've said it before on the podcast, but I think you just nailed it. It's a process that we have of taking really, it's like the swamp, the compost of our experience and growing really beautiful things.

Yeah, I think there's an element of humility and perspective that I think about on this notion of beautifully broken because that's just a descriptor of life if you're paying attention on the journey. I mean, it's all about the goods and the bads and how you can stop and put each of those things in perspective and

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (48:58.169)
and take the gift in on both extremes. So I agree. think it will be maybe interesting to sort of, like we're interested clearly in how this thing's going to turn out. So... would say even it's curiosity. But if there's a curiosity that we have. So I love this idea of kind of checking in on this process and doing a few of these to track.

where it goes because I can't wait to see what happens. too. Me too. Thanks, Freddie. Of course. Of course. And then one last question. Do you have any advice to young couples out there that are just getting in? If you guys could take a time travel back to day one of your marriage, what would be the advice you'd give yourselves? Kathy, you can go first. I mean, I would say really write out a contract.

Write out agreements, get in touch with what it is you want as a human for yourself individually, right? Share that with your partner, maybe find a counselor or the person who's marrying you or whatever, but like do the work ahead of time because all of a sudden you're gonna find yourself five, 10 years in and you're gonna think, did I agree to this? So get, be more conscious about the process. Share your values.

Yeah. You know, ironically, just furthering the case that it's time for us to step back and revisit and refresh that contract. We actually wrote a vision statement. I don't know if you call that a contract, but it was sort of a form of it. And it actually is, it hangs in our room. Ironically, it's faded. So you can't read a word of it. it's like, guess we need to get back to work at it. Yeah.

It's time for a new contract. I think that's what we're going to try to do. And also the other piece of advice I would say is embrace space along the way, which I think we've talked about and Kathy's probably been better at it over the years. She can be more in touch with some of those things, but you do have to kind of create the space and step back. We're doing it in a big way for a somewhat extended period of time. And I think doing it in little increments

Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (51:26.173)
on some regular basis will help along the way. Beautiful. Well, thank you guys both for being here. We'll edit this up together and we'll cut out when Rosie, Rosie got entangled in the microphone. Do you want to say anything, Rosie? Rosie's a beautiful rescue dog. Does anybody think that these health upgrades sound expensive? They can be an investment. But after truly learning how money works,

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Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (53:44.309)
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Freddie Kimmel, Scott and Cathy Whelehan (54:01.791)
My friends, you made it to the end of the podcast and here we are in season three. I think our relationship is developing into something really special. So there are two ways to support this show. The first is by joining my membership program at buymeacoffee.com forward slash freddy set go. Here you'll get early access to all the podcasts, bonus episodes, video clips,

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And if you want to connect with me directly, I'm on Instagram at freddysetgo or buymeacoffee.com forward slash freddysetgo. Last message from my vast team of lawyers that I pay a lot of money for. The information on this podcast is for educational purposes only. By listening, you agree not to use the information found here as medical advice to treat any medical condition in yourself, your family members or others. Always consult your own physician for any medical issues that you may be having challenges with. That's it for today. Our closing, the world is changing. We need you at your very best. So take the steps today to always be upgrading. Remember, while life is pain, putting the fractured pieces back together is a beautiful process. I love ya. I'm your host, Freddie Kimmel. Namaste.