Reclaiming Body and Mind: The Role of Floatation Therapy in Anorexia Recovery with Dr. Emily Choquette

WELCOME TO EPISODE 205

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT 

Freddie Kimmel (00:01.93)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beautifully broken podcast. I am here with Dr. Emily Chiquette. Emily is an associate investigator at the Laureate Institute for Brain Research in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with a PhD and licensed as a clinical psychologist from the University of Florida. Her research is focusing on women's health, disordered eating and substance abuse.

Currently she's exploring flotation therapy, which I've done and absolutely loved. It was a transcendent experience, we will talk about for treating body image disturbances in anorexia nervosa. Emily, welcome to the

Emily Choquette (00:40.959)
Thank you. I'm really excited to be

Freddie Kimmel (00:43.566)
I am so excited. this is our, well, just, I like radical transparency. This is our second attempt to record because we had like a hurricane go through. had like an internet flub, all the things the other day. we're, we're, we're back, but I, I, I even appreciate our 15 minutes, 14 minutes that we got into the conversation. So I got all stoked about it

Emily Choquette (01:05.863)
Yeah, I did too and I was actually a little glad for, you I was nervous the first time but now having met you, I feel a lot more comfortable. So I'm excited to get talking about the float stuff today.

Freddie Kimmel (01:16.108)
That's amazing. That's amazing. What, if we were walking down the street, we'd bump into each other. What would you tell people you do for a

Emily Choquette (01:25.267)
Yeah, so as you mentioned, I'm an associate investigator at Liber. I'm also the director of the Float Center and, sorry, Float Clinic and Research Center here. And so what my role is, is I work with a great team of scientists on a number of different projects surrounding mental health. But my primary project is looking at two different adjunctive treatments for body image dissatisfaction and disturbance in anorexia nervosa. And one of those treatments is

flotation rest paired with psychotherapy, which I call float assisted

Freddie Kimmel (02:00.366)
float assisted psychotherapy. so before we go too far down the road, can we define floating? What is floating? mean, can I, is floating just me laying in the middle of like the Dead Sea and salt that that's technically floating, but define floating as a therapy.

Emily Choquette (02:02.549)
Yeah.

Emily Choquette (02:13.291)
Yeah. Yeah, so that is technically floating. However, we use Epsom salt because it's less irritating to the skin. But floating is an environment in which the external stimuli is reduced. So things like tactile information, so your touch, because you're actually floating supine in a dense salt solution. So you can easily kind of buoyantly float on the top of the pool.

We also have thermal regulation, reduce light and sound. And additionally to that, there's often a reduced oil factory, so smell component, you're not smelling a whole lot. And so it's a very sensory deprecated environment in which an individual can, again, of gently float on top of the surface of the water.

Freddie Kimmel (03:04.142)
How did this get started? Do you know when floating came along as a thing or was discovered?

Emily Choquette (03:10.515)
Yeah, so kind of briefly, and you can do a deep dive into this history because there's a lot more that I am not super familiar with, but it started kind of during the 60s, I believe, when Jay Shirley and John Lilly were doing, they were looking into what they call sensory overload because it was thought specifically during the Cold War that having more stimulation was better to keep people attending to the task that they were doing.

And so they built these big tube -like tanks and they submerged people underwater with these big masks and things. So it was a similar experience of no sight, no, sorry, no visual information, no sight, no smell obviously, or underwater. But, and to see whether that actually improved or was worse for people's kind of processing functions and what they found that it was actually, helped people.

in some ways. And then that kind of their research continued until I believe like the 70s when the actual pools were developed because I can't tell you many people who would be willing to be submerged underwater with a big gas mask. It's essentially like scuba diving in the dark, right? Especially if you are an anxious person already, I'm certainly not going to do something like

And so they found that you can use chambers to reduce sight and that kind of information. But the Epson salt allows you to float buoyantly on top of the water. you don't need a mask of any kind. The ideal position is that your ears are just below the water. And so it's a comfortable position. It's like laying in a cloud of pillows or a pillow of clouds. It was like, good, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (05:02.722)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I would, I would say exactly that. I had went to lizard yoga here in Austin, Texas. And my friend Liz facilitated a float for me. I've actually done two and I was, I was blown away. mean, it, there's nothing, there's nothing like it be it. It's very experiential and, and you are like, I'm getting into this big white clam shell and the lights are going to go off. And you know,

the temperature was very, I was worried about being cold. I was like, Oh, I'm going to be cold in the water. And it's just, it's your, it's really your body temp. Right. And so as the, as, as the session started out with music and then went, that went away into silence, I think I lasted the whole, I thought I would bail, but I lasted the whole 40 minutes. And by the time I had got done, the chatter had become so minimal in my brain. I realized.

Emily Choquette (05:36.361)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (05:41.863)
Exactly.

Emily Choquette (05:52.189)
I

Freddie Kimmel (06:02.508)
I realized very quickly, I really don't understand what true relaxation feels like in this world of overwhelm and constant information being bombarded. was really blown away from my just very limited experiences so

Emily Choquette (06:15.115)
Absolutely.

Emily Choquette (06:20.907)
That's awesome. My first float was here at Liber, and we have something different than the traditional pods. We actually have open pools here to help encourage people who have high anxiety get into the pool, because if I'm claustrophobic, trying to get me into one of those pods is probably not going to happen, right? So ours are eight feet in diameter, and they're in rooms that are specially built to reduce kind of external stimulation.

But when I got in for the first time, I was not sold yet and was a little nervous because first of all, I'm here at work and I'm now naked, which is uncomfortable to begin with. And so I was lucky enough to have some of these kind of mindfulness practices that I was able to use while I was floating because I don't think I would have been able to stay in the whole time if I hadn't.

Freddie Kimmel (07:14.914)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've, and I've had, do think it's, it's, it's going to be based on that personality type of what they're comfortable with it for sometimes for people to take their clothes off and to be naked and it'd be in a public facility and being in this uncomfortable position of letting go that, that can be a barrier. Although, like anything else, I just think there's a little bit of education and awareness. had a great onboarding video when I did my experience, like what to expect.

what to do don't touch your eyes you know all the little props and cues that you would

Emily Choquette (07:47.407)
Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. And I think a lot of float centers that I've seen do a really good job of that. And I also think podcasts like this of helping more broadly kind of spread the word, like what is floating? What does that experience look like? Can also be helpful to get people in who may not have previously known about it or been willing to try it.

Freddie Kimmel (08:12.14)
Yeah, I never want to label something as good or bad, but sometimes I'll see something like this and for whatever reason we could like, why is there not mass adoption of this when I feel this way? And I think it just speaks to the need to meet everybody where they're at. I really do, I think it speaks to that need. I would also say that there is

Emily Choquette (08:32.413)
Mm -hmm, absolutely.

Freddie Kimmel (08:40.856)
there's a wave right now of people doing all of this, many different types of plant medicine and psychedelics and man, you know, the idea that my nervous system could get there in this way without a drug was very fascinating to me. the idea, very, I'm romanced with the idea that the body has the medicine with inside if I can ease the chatter. And I was,

Emily Choquette (08:55.349)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (09:10.882)
Man, I did a video of it and I was like, I'll do a video about my experience. I was really moved. It was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was profound. The work that you're doing, let's talk about that a little bit, because I would love to know more about how this comes into play with body image and even helping and assisting in body

Emily Choquette (09:17.885)
Awesome. That's really great. Cool.

Emily Choquette (09:37.971)
Yeah, so I'm gonna briefly talk a little bit about what anorexia is and body image, because I think that's important. So anorexia nervosa is highly, it has a high mortality rate, so it is a disease that doesn't have a high prevalence, but has a high burden for both the individuals who suffer from it and society. Lots of medical visits, they're often likely to relapse within one year of treatment.

about 30 to 50 % relapse and have to go back hospitalized. So we're treating it and it seems like the gold standards need a little help. And they're great treatments, don't get me wrong, but they're not working for everybody, right? And so some of the key facets of anorexia nervosa are the traditional, what people think of the really low body weight, fear of weight gain.

Freddie Kimmel (10:22.456)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (10:31.433)
And there's also this body image component. So either the overvaluation of weight and shape, so how I kind of incorporate my weight and shape into my value and self -worth as a person, but also this perceptual piece. And so that is literally how I see myself, right? So if I am perceiving my body to be larger than it actually is, and that is disturbed an anorexia nervosa. And so,

That's the body image component. So to break the body image component down, it has this cognitive affective piece. So my thoughts and feelings about my body and then this perceptual piece, I just described. And so what we know about the cognitive affective piece is it's pretty well treated by some of our traditional treatments, CBT, things like that. And the perceptual piece is either not targeted in some of our traditional treatments or

is harder to target. And so it's this mental image that people have of themselves. And so the thought process behind floating is that this mental image is affected by this interoception, which is our body's ability to process body stimuli. So this includes things like sensing your body stimuli, incorporating it into

kind of your perception of what's happening externally, as well as your interpretation of your body stimuli. So women with anorexia nervosa, and men, but I primarily work with women, but patients with anorexia nervosa have this interoceptive difficulty where they're not processing this internal stimuli.

Emily Choquette (12:21.599)
well, as well as healthy individuals, and they are more likely to interpret it negatively. So for instance, if I'm sitting here, I'm sweating, my heart's racing, my butterflies in my stomach, I can interpret that a couple different ways, right? I can say, I'm really anxious to be here, right? Or I can say, I'm really excited to be here. And that interpretation of those body signals,

in disorders like inter -exunivus and anxiety tend to be more negatively focused. So where does float fit into all of this? I've talked for a while, but so the theory behind that is what we actually found is that with reliably within one session from pre to post float that perceptual component of body image that disturbance is reduced. And we don't know.

why we have a theory about it and my study is currently testing that theory, but the theory is that this perceptual component is influenced by our ability to interpret our internal body sensations and be aware of them. And so because that is reduced in anorexia nervosa, individuals are more inclined to use external stimuli to interpret the world around them. And in this case of body image, they're more likely to use

Freddie Kimmel (13:35.309)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (13:40.639)
visual cues. And so their kind of mental picture of themselves becomes self -objectified. So seeing oneself as an object or from the observer's gaze, which leads to this distorted view of yourself, as well as negative cognition, so negative thoughts and negative feelings about your body. So when you're floating, the idea is that this rebalances the external and internal.

Freddie Kimmel (14:02.572)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (14:08.799)
to help you have a more accurate representation of your own

Freddie Kimmel (14:13.59)
Yeah, that makes sense. So when we think about the senses, you know, the body, is it is it true to say that there is a are we saying there's a domination of like the visual, like that that what my body sees, or is it like a mental image that's being projected in my mind that's that's dominated, which is unhealthy?

Emily Choquette (14:18.474)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (14:36.247)
so I think it's a little bit of both in this scenario. So the kind of, because in people are not getting the information from within their body to interpret kind of the world around them, they're using these external cues, which then in turn, creates this mental image that is inaccurate because they're.

Freddie Kimmel (14:56.942)
Yeah. I was, I was saying the other day where I had done this scan called a sky coup. think it's called sky coup at my doctor's office. And it's like a 360 degree scan. it comes up with like circumference and circumference and radii of the body. And it just, looked at my body. was like, Oh my God, I look like a, like a chunky soft marshmallow. It's terrible. You know that, and it was just like one of those feedback loops where you're just not, is that me? And then, and then I, I notice it really like in

dressing rooms in a, in a, know, in a store, you go to try something on your like, no, what this is, who is that? That's not, that's not me. You're like, what is this lighting happening here? Yeah. So I, I am under, I'm, I'm very clear where it exists even to me with a relatively healthy body image that I was like, that's a lot. There's a judgment about it immediately.

Emily Choquette (15:28.063)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Emily Choquette (15:34.485)
Yeah.

Emily Choquette (15:42.911)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (15:48.733)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think so first of all dressing rooms are usually people's like most feared things when they come in for body image and they talk about body image treatment and it's funny because you you would think that stores would want people to feel good about themselves in their clothings, but that's another talk for another time. I do think you know, we have this preconceived notion of what we look like in our head, right? We are constantly we have this kind of what we call long -term body image. So this mental representation in our head

Freddie Kimmel (16:05.912)
Yeah.

Emily Choquette (16:17.989)
And we're constantly getting information that's updating it in some way. In order to be able to reach out and touch my coffee cup, I have to know, first of all, where my arm is. And I don't think about it. It's just something that is incorporated. So when we're getting a lot of people who don't have this internal sense of self, some of this interoceptive ability, or they're interpreting it more negatively, are as dangerous.

you're starting to rely more on these external cues, like what you see, which can be skewed also. And then we have our judgments about that, which can help skew some of our interpretation of those visual symptoms, or visual, sorry, visual signals.

Freddie Kimmel (17:00.844)
Yeah. What in your experience, you know, working in this realm is what, what is the, what do think the impact of our digital age, social media? I mean, the filters that we use, it, what's, what's been your experience of

Emily Choquette (17:18.431)
Well, just based on, so I can talk a little bit about the research, but I think just based on my experience in the float pool, how often are you in an environment where you're not getting any external information? Even if you're meditating or doing yoga, there's some kind of external information, whether it's the person breathing next to you or things happening in the room around you, there are very few experiences in life

Freddie Kimmel (17:39.224)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (17:47.051)
Truly the only thing you have is your own body and your own mind. And I think this constant stream of information, there's a lot of research that suggests it's really not great for anxiety. It's not good for a lot of different kind of psychological variables, stress, things like that. And then you get people who may have some mental health concerns and it may affect them even more significantly based on what they're consuming.

Freddie Kimmel (18:17.514)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's, what we're consuming. That's, I think that's like one of the key phrases that I'm always going back to at this time. And so what have, what have you seen in the research? You know, you're working with this tool, you're getting to use float, sensory deprivation, sensory deprivation out of the toolbox. yeah, tell

Emily Choquette (18:41.745)
Yeah. So let's see. So in terms of my research, there's been two previous studies using anorexia nervosa. And what they found is a significant decrease in anxiety. It's safe. It's effective reliably. The anxiety is reducing after each individual float. And this perceptual body image is reducing. So that's what my study is based on.

I'm too early to say anything about the results of our study right now. We just started within the last year. And the individuals who are in the float component, and I do want to say that the other condition is actually an active treatment as well. It just doesn't incorporate the float piece. But the people who are floating are saying, I'm feeling better when I get out. I'm more relaxed. I'm sleeping better, things like that. And I think that echoes some of the research that we're seeing as well.

know, Dr. Justin Feinstein did some research here at Liber with anxious individuals and found huge reductions in anxiety, muscle tension, increases in positive affect, know, lots of benefits. And I think one thing that's really interesting to mention is a colleague of mine, McKenna Garland, just looked at this, what we

Ecologic, it's called ESM, I can't remember what it stands for, but essentially you ping people multiple times a day for 48 hours, and what she found is that the anxiolytic effect of floating wasn't just in the acute, it was up to 48 hours. And that was two different types of reduced environmental stimulation therapy, or REST, which was both this chair rest, where you can rest in the chair, as well as the floating.

Freddie Kimmel (20:27.266)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (20:28.563)
And so essentially, being in an environment where you're not tuned into your phone, you're not getting all this extra stimuli, can reduce your anxiety for up to two days. Like, that's huge. And it's been compared. So what we like to do in science is we like to compare things in terms of standardized comparisons, because what I use in my study might be different than what you use as a measure. And so those

Freddie Kimmel (20:38.999)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (20:49.774)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (20:57.675)
called effect sizes. And when we look at the effect sizes of kind of the acute effect of flotation rest, comparatively to a Xanax or a Benzo, they're fairly similar.

Freddie Kimmel (21:08.864)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, incredible. Without any of the adverse side effects.

Emily Choquette (21:15.869)
Exactly. And risk of it, well, I would say risk of addiction, right? I suppose you could get addicted to floating.

Freddie Kimmel (21:17.474)
Yeah, incredible.

Freddie Kimmel (21:24.28)
Of course. Yeah. yeah. yeah. And that's okay.

Emily Choquette (21:29.235)
Yeah, it would be healthier.

Freddie Kimmel (21:30.552)
That's okay. I, I think we're all addicts. I've said, I've said that this is probably a theory that, that, it gains, validation in my experience that, that we're all addicts, you know, I'm, I'm addicted to clean coffee and time and sunlight in the morning. And I, I'm addicted to putting on a good music while I'm getting ready. of these things. I am always trying to

What, are the good habits I can layer in? But then it feels good. So it's something I am immediately reaching for is as opposed to, right? It's like life is going to be full of choices. you, you can't not choose anything. Your choice could be no choice, but we really do want to fill up the habit stack with things that are beneficial. I have a question for you about cadence. Like what is, have you looked

a float frequency or if you were to give someone, well, I'm going to give you a prescription for floating. Here's what I'd like to see based on the research that I've

Emily Choquette (22:36.139)
Yeah, so we've done some of that. There are acute benefits to just one float. This study that I was just talking about with the ESM or ECLOD, whatever. Anyway, this pinging of people for 48 hours, they did find that after five floats, there was a baseline drop in anxiety. That doesn't mean that five floats may be the magic number. We're not really sure. There's kind of too early to tell.

thinking there's one other study that looked at pain. And I think they looked at 12 versus 33 floats and found that after 12 floats, there was a reduction in pain. So maybe that's the magic number. I think the field is not far enough along to say, I'm going to prescribe you X number of floats and things are going to be better. think it's kind of like any treatment. Maybe you have a prescribed number and then you do maintenance sessions.

Freddie Kimmel (23:08.856)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (23:33.891)
Yeah.

Emily Choquette (23:35.467)
I think it's hard to say right now. Sorry, I can't answer your question more directly.

Freddie Kimmel (23:38.186)
is that's okay. Do you have a protocol which you like to follow is floating something that you're doing for your general wellness?

Emily Choquette (23:48.083)
I don't do it as often as I would like, and I would love to be floating at least twice a month. Yeah. I think it would be beneficial to do it once a week. I know lots of people who do it once a week. I know people who do it every day who swear by it. I think for me, once a week would be ideal.

Freddie Kimmel (23:55.926)
Okay.

Emily Choquette (24:10.729)
I also have to do it at work. So there's some barriers to that as we talk. I don't have to, guess I could do it outside of work, but there's some barriers to that. I think we typically, when we do our treatment studies, we do once a week for eight weeks.

Freddie Kimmel (24:25.716)
once a week for a week. was my instinct was once a week. And let me ask you this, are you guys looking at anything like, have you ever looked at deep sleep, quality of sleep, sleep interruptions, heart rate variability, resting heart

Emily Choquette (24:42.919)
Yeah, so there is one paper on heart rate variability and I wish I had reviewed it. So I don't feel like I can talk about that right now because I can't, it's been a while since I've read it, but they have found reductions in things like blood pressure. There have been studies that look at sleep onset and found that the onset of sleep is sooner or more quick and just self -reported sleep quality.

is improved. So we may not have like physiological measurements of that, but people are feel like their sleep is better.

Freddie Kimmel (25:16.45)
Yeah. I was going to say the other thing that, that was really stuck out for me, especially at where I had done my flow at lizard yoga is that they have this beautiful tea room afterwards where I went in and it was, it was, was a, there was a salt, a salt block wall and they had out tea and there was like this great moving sculpture and it was so Zen and I got to be there for a while. I really felt the value in

of not going right back into my car. There was a space to integrate. So I don't know if that's something you've ever looked at or studied or is that a piece of your therapy when you guys are working with floating and

Emily Choquette (25:50.847)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (25:58.077)
It is, yeah, so it is a piece. have a float lounge with a beautiful mural that was painted by Sandra Calm, who is one of the float. I think she's on the board of directors of float conference and I hope she won't kill me for if she's not. But it's a, it's a nice environment we used to serve before COVID, you know, water and tea and things like that. Now it's just water. But.

We do have an environment like that where people can come and relax beforehand and afterwards. And I do think that's an important part of the process is not jumping right back into whatever is happening on your phone or in your life. it's personally, I don't want to when after I floated, like it's hard for me to jump right back on a screen. I noticed that I'm off of my phone a lot more afterwards. So I do think that's an important part of the process. And I love the integrative.

float centers that they're doing that. think it's really cool.

Freddie Kimmel (26:59.79)
Yeah, I think I would say it's paramount. Just like I would, I would suggest after I flexed or worked a muscle group to either get on the foam roller or do some mobility stretching to cool down from my workout. This is a system in which we've, um, we've, we've done a little work with. So what does the integration process look like? I would have everything. It's like take a 30 minute walk after dinner. Like these are, they seem common sense, but I think when we're skipping steps

Emily Choquette (27:10.058)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (27:28.408)
we're eliminating some of the value of the medicine. That's always been my experience with every single therapy, it full body lymphatic drainage or red light therapy or pulsed electromagnetics or oxygen. It's like, take time and see how this sits in your body.

Emily Choquette (27:44.605)
Exactly. And I think one thing that's unique about my current study is that that's kind of what we're trying to get people to do. So prior to floating, so no float study to my knowledge has ever given any therapeutic instruction on like, what do you do when you're floating? Right? It's just like get in the pool, make sure you don't get salt in your eyes. You it's kind of the basic things that we tell people. And this study has them walk through

Freddie Kimmel (28:01.7)
Hmm.

Emily Choquette (28:12.563)
exercises to help them be more mindful and accepting of their bodily signals, right? Something that we're trying to target with float in general and help them to become more in tune with them. So it's a mindfulness and acceptance based kind of protocol that we go through. They then float and practice those exercises and then afterwards,

as kind of like a built -in buffer, they come back and we talk about like, what was your experience? So it's that lived re -experience of what you were doing, what was helpful, what did you notice about maybe your heartbeat or your breathing, things like that.

Freddie Kimmel (28:49.602)
Yeah, incredible. Incredible. Do you see any, do you see any huge variations in how the therapy is delivered? I know there's different types of float tanks. There's, there's pods. There's even in Austin, there's a place called Kuya, which is, which is rooms. It's, they're great big salt rooms that you walk into. What's, what would you add to that conversation?

Emily Choquette (29:15.883)
So in terms of research -wise, I know of two actual dedicated research clinics, and we're both using open pools. And that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with closed pools. think there has been done research done using these closed pods. Again, I think that's personal preference. think people

Freddie Kimmel (29:37.507)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (29:38.291)
Some people really love the closed pods. is the only way they'll float. I think there are also more centers who are realizing that maybe people might try it if they don't have to get into a closed pod, right? So they have these big open rooms. And I think it's just a personal preference at this point. We haven't seen any differences in terms of the effects in the closed pods, or at least the research that I've seen in like these open pools.

Freddie Kimmel (30:04.268)
Yeah. Yeah. That sounds right to me. I wouldn't, I wouldn't imagine there would be, and I know within the industry of wellness and technology, there's usually a, a pull towards one or the other. I would imagine also at some of it comes down to, affordability and how you can manage these as far as keeping them clean, the sterility. you, can you speak to anything? How is that managed from like pod to pod to pod? Am I in somebody else's, salt

Emily Choquette (30:35.075)
No. these pods and pools are regulated very highly. That is a question that I would encourage everyone to go check out Roy Voifer. He has done a ton of microbial research on float tanks. And I am not a microbiologist, so I'm not going to pretend that I know what it means. our system is filtered four times before anybody else gets back into it. The water is literally cleaner than your shower

Right? And salt also has some antimicrobial properties as well. So I wouldn't be concerned. They are highly regulated. It's not like getting into someone else's bath water. No, none of that.

Freddie Kimmel (31:06.451)
yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (31:21.482)
Of course, of course. I just, I, and I've seen the filtration systems on the backside of these and I'm always like, my goodness, that looks amazing. And I knew there was a certain amount of times the water was processed in between people, but I'm sure that pops into people's heads as far as like a barrier. And I guess the only other thing I would ask

I love to give people a little homework. It's like, what could I look at or changes in my nervous system or my body? I mean, the things that come to my mind that are easily trackable right now, it's like, you know, most of us have access to some type of a sleep tracker, be it an Apple watch or an aura ring or a biometric device. If you're into that, I would also say something a little higher level if your tracker has heart rate variability.

looking at your nervous system tone. And the other thing that I would intuit is possibly like a pain scale, looking at a reduction pain just because you're floating in magnesium that has, it's so funny, last week's episode is on magnesium miracle with Dr. Carolyn Dean. We're looking at the 300 enzymatic processes that are complimented by magnesium. And there's so much that it goes into. So I would say some type of

subjective experience pain scale people could of course like fill out and blind themselves to the accession one the accession eight or however many you're going to commit

Emily Choquette (32:52.777)
Yeah, and there is some research that especially like muscle tension related pain floats good for. There's one more recent study which showed significant reductions in pain intensity. So there wasn't, I think this had to do with when they were measuring, they were measuring kind of longitudinally, there wasn't necessarily a reduction in pain, but the pain intensity was reduced. So, and I think acutely too, if someone's in chronic pain,

Freddie Kimmel (32:58.221)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (33:22.699)
even just an acute reduction of that pain can be hugely beneficial. think about, you know, this is again a personal anecdote, but my mom floated for the first time and she's got some chronic back pain and she came out and you know, after her first 15 minutes where she said she was having a panic attack, but she settled down, you know, she said, I don't have any pain and I haven't been pain free in over a year. And she does yoga, she does PT.

Like, and that's not scientific, but it, you know, I really think it speaks to anecdotally, like, it can be huge for somebody, right? That being free of pain.

Freddie Kimmel (34:04.258)
Yeah. Yeah. I had muscles releasing and, know, again, I think pain's a signal. You know, my, my body is hard wiring, especially if it's been there for a while. My, body's hard wiring that pathway. It's a path of least resistance and, the postural comp compensatory patterns that I develop over time just by sitting and podcasting a lot

Emily Choquette (34:22.069)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (34:31.596)
you know, being right hand dominant or old injury in soccer, those, those hold the body holds that memory. had a great, in fact, it's so funny. like, why didn't, haven't I gone back more times? I, I had a great reduction in pain and I was so the, the fluidity in which I walked out of the center was, was really amazing to me. I actually got to go find that video, Tessa. I'll post that my stories today. it was really, I was, I was in a state.

Emily Choquette (34:56.139)
That's awesome.

Emily Choquette (35:01.799)
Awesome. And I think that also speaks to some of the new research about kind of this transcendent state. And I don't want to speak too much about it because I know they're going to speak at folkcon, but they found that this kind of body dissolution was highly related to the reduction of anxiety. And so when we think about the pain regions in our brain,

Freddie Kimmel (35:01.834)
I was in a state. Yeah, I was so relaxed.

Emily Choquette (35:24.829)
It's tied to our emotion regions and they're all incorporated with kind of how we see ourselves, right, and this body image too. And so it really comes down to this one kind of, this is very simplistic, but kind of this one pathway in our brain where we're incorporating this internal information, we're turning it into a body picture where we have our pain maps and things like that that's connected to all these things. And so if we can just get some time.

where that's offline for a little bit maybe. Maybe that's what's doing it. There's only one study that I know of that looked at brain imaging and they found that after eight sessions of float in healthy individuals, was reduction, functional connectivity change in the default mode network and in the somatosensory cortex. So the default mode network is essentially self -referential processing. And so,

the thought process is that this might reduce self -reflective processing of bodily signals, right? And so that might change that in some way. And again, that's kind of really simplistically stated, but I think that's some signal for us, right?

Freddie Kimmel (36:36.28)
Well, that's yeah. And that's, I mean, you know, we can, we can put it in a double blind study, but we can also say, look, there's many examples in which the brain rewiring, even, even looking at the work of, any hopper and the DNRS dynamic neural, signaling reprocessing DNRS dynamic neural reprocessing. Yeah. I'll go look that one up

You know, it's, there's, there's programs like re -origin primal trust, DNRS, which are working with this limbic loop, which is, which is firing. There's like a narrative. It's like, you know, I have this experience, the negative maladaptive response is like, these are the things I lose from this experience. This will always be happening to me. I'll always be this way. And we doubled down on that immediate reflexive response. So for sure, if we're going to look at an image of the brain,

that shows me enhanced processing. I think there's always the opportunity. And I just, would say this to anybody who hears this. It's like you, create the opportunity, you clear the stage for a new story to be told. Anytime we do this work and, and the value on the other side of that, that's where the, the, the person in the float tank, you hold the key. It's not up to the therapy. It's not up to the science. It's not up to the practitioner. You hold the key to how you want that story to be told.

And all we're doing is we're setting the stage for possibility. I really believe that be it ketamine, be it cognitive behavioral, be it EMDR, be it float tank, be it flowpresso. I could go on and on and on. just, but I see it again and again, because within all these different complimentary therapies, we always have these amazing stories, right? Where grandma Betty threw away her walker and she was all of sudden she went to the Himalayas and

Emily Choquette (38:25.524)
Yep.

Freddie Kimmel (38:28.91)
She hiked, she got all the way to the mountain top at 82 years old. Isn't this incredible? And you can do that too. And so a lot of times we'll hear these stories and we'll put it on the therapy, not knowing that it was grandma Betty. Grandma Betty was like the magic. I just, I want everybody to hold that possibility that you can be that person if you allow the space to set the stage. Do you want to add anything to that, Emily?

Emily Choquette (38:53.604)
Yeah, I think that's a great, mean, I think that there are certain things that click for certain people, right? So when we think about treatment and specifically when I think about like psychology research, treatment therapy does not work for everybody. Like every one specific treatment doesn't work for everybody and it's what you're taking out of it, right? That might be more effective for you. Same thing with floating or some of these other complimentary treatments.

and it's also what you're putting into it. So if I'm kind of, I don't want to say, can I say half -assing? Can you believe that? If I am half -assing my effort into any type of treatment, I'm only going to get in when I put out of it. Or sorry, I'm only going to get out what I put into it, excuse me. So I do think there is that aspect and I also do really think it's important that if something doesn't work for you, try something different because it may just explain it or come at it from a different angle.

Freddie Kimmel (39:27.852)
Yes, yeah.

Emily Choquette (39:48.159)
that clicks for

Freddie Kimmel (39:50.348)
Yeah. a dynamic neural retraining system. was very, very close. think I might've even said that. Yeah. I would, I would just, and I would just add that is the, that is the, radical ownership. It's like your role and your responsibility. My, my dance teacher used to say, have the, be an active participant in your own improvement. You know, you can be in class, but I can't, I can't make you good, right? I can't, I can't do it for you. I can only show you, I can make you thirsty for

Emily Choquette (39:54.005)
There we go.

Emily Choquette (40:19.817)
Yeah. And I don't want to discourage, sorry, I don't want to discourage anybody who feels like they can't be an active participant yet to not seek treatment because I think that's the other thing is like, I can't seek treatment until I'm ready. I think sometimes it starts with I'm feeling really crappy, so I'm going to do something different. I think that taking the first step is the best. And so I again, don't want to discourage anyone from taking that first step or from seeking treatment or just doing something.

Freddie Kimmel (40:20.327)
yeah. And, yeah, you

Emily Choquette (40:47.783)
or sometimes just doing what you can in that moment, which might be just getting out of bed for that day. I think that's really important to acknowledge too, because sometimes life feels too big. And so when we come at it from, want people to just, meeting people where they are, like you talked about earlier, I think that's really important as well. So taking some ownership in that as well as a clinician. I don't want to put it all on other.

Freddie Kimmel (40:48.184)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (41:14.677)
people because I think that we have some ways that we can help them even if they're not right there ready yet.

Freddie Kimmel (41:21.515)
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, as a therapist, I know you see it. You've seen people move through to a place of better functionality. And I'm sure you've identified commonalities in that personality type that allows that change to

Emily Choquette (41:28.383)
Mm -hmm.

Emily Choquette (41:35.253)
Sure, yeah. And I think it gets, it's different for every person too. Like I, this is a totally different treatment, but I had someone coming in for what we call positive affect treatment and they were like, this is not going to work for me. I'm depressed. I'm like, just, just be open. My thing I love to say to my patients, doesn't matter what treatment we're doing, just be open to trying it. Just do me a favor, try it out. If you hate it, fine, no big deal. Whatever. We'll move on.

If you're not even open to trying it, how will you know if it worked or not? You can tell yourself it's not gonna work, but you don't know for sure, right? So that openness to experience is really important.

Freddie Kimmel (42:11.95)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I'm just, I'm reminded to like those 1980s war on drugs commercial where like the guy opens the van. He's like, I got something for you, but you were just like, I got a float for you. Yeah, it works the same way.

Emily Choquette (42:19.027)
You

Wow, pedaling floats. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (42:27.47)
Pedaling floats, pedaling wellness. Well, Emily, I wanna be respectful of your time and I'm so excited. I wanna mention, and this is really, this is the fun thing, is like not every time do you get to do a podcast interview, but we're actually going to be meeting in person. We're both going to be at the Float Conference in San Antonio, which I'm gonna pull up the dates for right now on my Google.

It is August 9th through the 11th at, um, in San Antonio. And so the float conference is float conference .com and you can go there to get tickets. There's a discount code for tickets, which I actually have. I'm going to pull it up on this screen. And that is 24, like 2024, but it's just 24 capital F capital F. So it's float

24 float flow, both the F's are capitalized. We'll put that in the show notes. And Dr. Emily is going to be there speaking. Emily, what are you going to speak on?

Emily Choquette (43:31.229)
Yes. so I'm going to do a deeper dive into, so this is the 10th anniversary of the library float clinic, this year. So we're going to do a deeper dive into some of the research. think we hit a lot of it, but there's even more to go into. and kind of what I'm doing now, the pipeline for research. So like, why does it take so long for something to get, go from an idea to research to being maybe funded by insurance? My kind of

that medication pipeline. And then even though it's maybe not covered by insurance yet, like what are some things you can implement in terms of helping people get through floats, what you can do to improve maybe their float experience, kind of this clinical implications for what I've learned in the float research so

Freddie Kimmel (44:22.53)
Yeah, amazing. I have one more question for you, just out of curiosity. Does a float center, do they need a medical director? How is the treatment

Emily Choquette (44:32.491)
So a float center, like a commercial float center, does not need a medical director, as far as I know. We have medical people at Liber. Medical people, have physicians, have clinical psychologists, but that's more because of the nature of the work that we're doing. We work primarily with clinical populations.

Freddie Kimmel (44:36.695)
Yes.

Freddie Kimmel (44:56.308)
Awesome, awesome. That's great. Well, I am so fascinated to learn more about this. I'm so stoked to be at the Flow Conference. I will be there. I'm gonna be speaking as well. So we're gonna get to meet in person. Well, we can take a selfie and we can put it up in the stories and we'll get this out for sure. We'll get this out in the next couple of weeks. And so I just wanna remind everybody our our code for the event for discount tickets where you can meet.

Emily Choquette (45:08.682)
Yeah.

Emily Choquette (45:12.754)
That'd be great.

Freddie Kimmel (45:24.526)
Dr. Emily, you can meet myself. We can talk about all the wellness things. I'll be there with Flo Presso. It's floatconference .com and there is a tab for tickets and it's 24 float flow. And we would love to see you there. Emily, it's been such a treat. I'm so glad we waited and we got the right sound and the strong internet and all the things. And I'm just, yeah, I'm stoked to see you in San Antonio.

Emily Choquette (45:45.703)
Yeah.

for sure.

Yeah, I'm really excited. And a fun fact, if you didn't know this, they often have pop -up floats. So if you haven't floated in a while, you can do a pop -up float at the conference.

Freddie Kimmel (46:03.902)
I'm floating this week. I'm actually going to call Liz at Lizard Yoga and I'm going to get in because you know, like everything else, there's only so much we can fill our plates up with, but I'm reminded of the value of this therapy and how different it is from anything else there is out there. again, how we have this opportunity to just use this self -regulating nervous system and bring that online and do a lot of the internal

And I just, I'm again, I'm so romanticized with this, all these systems of the body that help regulate that we can make use of before we go to the bigger guns.

Emily Choquette (46:40.671)
Yep, absolutely. Very

Freddie Kimmel (46:42.88)
Amazing. So Beautifully Broken podcast, Emily, your final question. What does it mean to you to be beautifully

Emily Choquette (46:53.683)
Wow, that's a really good question. So I think so many of us in a world where social media is a thing and such a part of our life feel like we have to project this image of perfection. I just, first of all, there's no such thing as being perfect, right? And the more you strive for perfection, the more you're disappointed and the more upset you are.

and kind of being beautifully broken is taking where you are and always wanting to improve on that to be the best you can be, but also acknowledging that you are where you are today and that's okay. You are perfectly imperfect and that makes you worthy as a human, right?

Freddie Kimmel (47:49.238)
Yeah, I love it. We're born that way. Thank you for being a guest and I will see you soon.

Emily Choquette (47:51.187)
We are burn that way.

Emily Choquette (47:55.882)
Thank you so