Sleep Optimization: Harnessing Magnetic and Vibration Therapies with Joel Greene

WELCOME TO EPISODE 201

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT 

Freddie Kimmel (00:01.592)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beautifully broken podcast. We're cruising into season eight. And today joining us is Joel Green, who is a medical device engineer. He has inventions such as primal cold and optimist red. Joel is, you know, we have become connected because we are fans of human optimization, health and wellness. So with all of that, welcome to the show Joel.

Joel (00:11.918)
you

Joel (00:27.47)
Freddie, thank you. You have, you've drug me out of my cave of introversion. It took you a while, I think. I'm very reluctant to do this kind of stuff. Yeah, thanks. I'm excited for wherever this conversation leads. We have so many good conversations just on the phone, offline, and it seems a shame that we don't talk in front of a recording device here every once in a while. So yeah.

Let's do this.

Freddie Kimmel (00:57.432)
I know. It's wild. It's wild. I would say as much as I'm an extrovert, maybe you're an introvert to give us scope.

Joel (01:04.909)
Yeah. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:09.048)
So that pairs very well. You know, it's like a wine, a good wine and cheese makes, makes sense to me. Joel, how do we get connected? Do you remember like where the first interaction was? I want to say it was Jimmy Martin.

Joel (01:12.141)
Absolutely.

Joel (01:22.604)
Yeah, it absolutely was. And that was because I was sending him some cold packs. And then I think some of my products got in your hands as well. And yeah, that was a long time ago. Yeah, it's interesting how the world works like that. And here we are again, more fun things to share, I think. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:32.92)
Yeah.

It was a long time ago.

Freddie Kimmel (01:45.048)
I know. So you're here because you've got a new invention, which I'm a huge fan of. But I also, you know, again, the way I just want to give scope to people, you know, one of the first things I got from you was this. It was a really like a cup for your underwear, which was red light therapy for your testicles, optimus red. And I would, I remember I would, I was doing.

Joel (02:03.468)
Hahaha. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (02:08.248)
once in a while to a video walking around New York City, I'd go into a Dwayne Reed, I was like, is this offensive to anybody else? I was like, it looks like something's happening in there. So why did, what drew you to look around with the science of red light and explore that and its benefits to the body?

Joel (02:12.876)
us.

Joel (02:19.275)
Ha ha ha.

Joel (02:28.459)
You know, it really started when I was in college. So first year of college, I had a guest lecturing professor, Dr. Lou Gillette, and he and his team would study polluted lakes and waterways in Florida. And this was in the mid -90s. And he was one of the first people to really sound the alarm on xenoestrogens and all of these estrogen -mimicking chemicals in the environment. And...

He famously went before Congress to testify that men today have half the testosterone that their grandfathers had. And so he was really highlighting the generational declines we're seeing and the dysregulation in hormones. And I remember after his first lecture, he was talking about plastics and how plastics will leach these xenoestrogens out. And the next day,

everybody, they traded in their plastic, Nalgene water bottles, which were so fashionable in the mid 90s for like glass canning jars for their water. And that really started my awareness of this. And as you get older, you notice these declines or you wonder even, maybe I'm not noticing a decline, but I wonder maybe if my baseline where I'm at now,

Freddie Kimmel (03:37.08)
Yeah.

Joel (03:53.737)
is really not where I should be. Maybe I should be at a higher baseline and like everyone else should be, but we're all sort of laboring, our bodies are laboring under this additional load of these toxins in the environment. And so, you know, with Optimist Red, it...

It's, you know, I think a lot about the good versus the perfect, right? And the perfect is the enemy of the good. And you're not, like most people are not gonna stand naked in front of a wall panel of red light. Like only crazy people like you are gonna do this, Freddie, right? Like very few people are going to do that. It's expensive and it's a little...

It's just a little silly, right? You're standing there naked to try to, you know, you're getting all these great benefits, of course. But I think so much about like habits, habits that are hard to keep are sort of useless. And so I think a lot about how can I make something that just seamlessly fits into your life? How can you make something that's wearable so you can walk around New York or so you can walk into the grocery store, which I've done, or even worn it around the office?

Freddie Kimmel (04:44.12)
Yeah.

Joel (05:06.887)
But that's a different story, just to test out the wearability, right? So for me, I really, I try to be as lazy as possible with everything. What I mean by that is that I try to, I know I have very little willpower and I can dedicate that willpower only to certain things. And so if something is so easy to do that I really don't have an excuse, then I'm gonna do it. If I'm gonna have to stay.

stand naked in front of a wall panel for 15 minutes every day. I'm not gonna do it. I just know that. And you probably can. I can't. I don't have the willpower you do. So, yeah, so that's really the origin of all of that.

Freddie Kimmel (05:48.152)
love your thought process. You know, I said this a lot lately, I love people. You know, I don't want I don't want anybody else to think the way I think I like you said, Freddie Kimmel. Part of my DNA is behavior change. I can make my psyche thirsty enough for the newness of a therapy and add it in and then I just keep doing it. That's something that comes easy to me and I understand that is not the way of the brain.

that there's a lot of, there are obstacles in the way and everybody's views it as a different way. But I love to hear other people's experience of, you know, I, I know myself, I know what I will do and I know what I won't do. And I think that's brilliant to engineer for you, Joel, because I know there's other people that think exactly and feel the way that you do out there. And I think that's.

Joel (06:39.652)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (06:46.584)
That's the beauty of the human experience. Can you, and I love that. And again, for people at home, again, imagine just your, the men, your genitals that are, everybody imagined your.

Joel (06:59.109)
We don't, I didn't know we were gonna go down the rabbit hole here on this. yeah, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (07:04.024)
Just for a minute, I just want to because it's this idea that, you know, we do know we're living in a world that is presenting unprecedented environmental stressors to our sex hormone. One of the most important things to the species as we know it and red light therapy to release nitric oxide and to help with circulation and blood flow. Again, how do you fit it into daily life? So,

If you told me I need 15 to 20 more minutes to do this therapy and I don't have it, or I can't make that change, what if it just fits in your clothing? And again, that idea, I just wanted to paint that for people because it is important and it'll bring us into your new invention. It'll bring us into Harmonizer eventually. We'll talk about how this is a device that just fits into life. There's not extra time. And the other thing I want to just frame is like,

Joel (07:52.74)
you

Freddie Kimmel (08:01.464)
everything that I've gotten from you has been so simple and accessible in its application. There's a great cold pack that you had from the days of trying to get a cooler spine to lower the body temperature for optimal sleep that I still have that I just, I was switching out bed cooling systems and I was without anything in Austin, Texas. It's a hundred degrees. And so I undid this cool pack and put it under a towel and just laid it on my spine and it -

Joel (08:16.547)
So yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (08:31.544)
worked wonderful for getting my body temp down cool enough for me to drop into sleep. So, yeah, I celebrate your ability to like see the field and see the need and then to design for the human psyche, I guess is what I want to say.

Joel (08:46.69)
So bedtime, you mentioned that. I'm sure we'll come around again to that later, but I really feel like bedtime is the ultimate time to add a new habit because you're not doing anything. You're just laying there trying to get to sleep. Maybe you're reading a book. Maybe you're messing around on your phone, which you shouldn't do. Bad person looking at your screen right before bed, right? But people do it. And...

If you can have something acting on your body that's benefiting you, that's calming you down, that's helping you in some way, shape, or form, while you're laying there doing nothing, you're laying there doing nothing, you may as well do something, it takes zero willpower to add on something at bedtime if you're just laying on top of it or if it's resting on top of your body. It really is the ultimate. And maybe lazy isn't quite the right...

I say that I'm lazy or people are lazy and they want that, but really it's just that we've got so many distractions. We've got so many responsibilities, other things to do, right? And so just honoring the fact that people are busy. And it's a big ask to ask someone to take extra time out of their day, even if it is benefiting them, even if they do feel the difference. It's so easy to fall out of habit.

Freddie Kimmel (09:56.888)
Yeah.

Joel (10:12.736)
And then, you know, even if you're feeling that benefit, I've seen that a lot of times, you know, something's working well, and then you just kind of stop doing it. And then it goes away. And then you're like, why am I not feeling so great anymore? yeah, let me pick that habit up again. And you go through that cycle.

Freddie Kimmel (10:21.592)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's powerful. It's powerful. The I mean, I kind of want to go right into it. You know, this idea that you kind of hinted on it, like, I think the most common reflection I get right now is people are saying they're in a state of overwhelm, that there's there. There's this term burnout, which I don't love. There's this term where

There's just so much we could, we could talk about how many bits of information the brain can pick up. And, but how many bits of information are presented to the psyche and what story does Freddie's brain decide to pick up and tell about reality? Like my diff, it's just so different. And I think what you said is like, lazy isn't a bad word from my understanding, like a human being, it's like, we are designed to eat and sleep and play.

and make love and tell stories. And this unconscious capitalism, which is what we do today, doesn't really fall in with the human design. So is there anything you want to add to that?

Joel (11:27.167)
you

Joel (11:37.566)
You've got to contribute to the gross domestic product, Freddie, come on. You've got to hustle. You've got to get out there and grind. Right? I mean, it's not I mean, you know, you're going to spin me out on some like macro economic rant. But I mean, it used to be that like, right. It used to be. Thank you. I can go I can go anywhere. That's the that's one of the drawbacks of having like a person who who can't stop inventing things on the podcast. I'll go in different directions. But

Freddie Kimmel (11:43.96)
Gotta grind.

Freddie Kimmel (11:52.216)
I'll bring us back.

Joel (12:05.982)
because that's just the way my mind works. But I mean, it used to be, like everyone glorifies the side hustle now. It used to be that a single income would be sufficient for a family. And then, you know, in the 70s, then you needed two incomes. Now you certainly need two incomes to support a household for most people. And now that's not even enough. It's like, where's your side hustle? Glorify the side hustle. And...

I think that the side hustle is beautiful and if you're drawn to do something else, of course you need to do that and you should do that. You should put your gifts out into the world. But that being said, it's just, I see that whole culture as an extension of where we're at. We constantly need more and there's more subscriptions for everything and everything costs more. And so people are left focusing at the bottom of the pyramid.

of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and they can, myself included, right? Like I'm scratching my own itch. I think we all have to do that. And so, so, you know, I have a lot of embodied stress. I'm not necessarily a well embodied person. It's all up in the head and that's where a lot of people are. That's not, that's not great. And so anything that, that can just be a little reminder.

that helps you to take a few deep breaths, that helps you get re -embodied. I think it's a gift. I think it's a necessary thing to focus on these days.

Freddie Kimmel (13:44.632)
Yeah, me too. Me too. I want to, yeah, I want to like, now I want to talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but I'm not going to. I want to talk about your new invention. I want to talk about Harmonizer and you know, I'll give a, let me just give my 30 second understanding of Harmonizer. Spelled H -A -R -N -I -Z -R. So if you look up Harmonizer and try to spell it,

like it's spelled, you won't find it. And so Harmonizer is essentially, I'm going to hold it up. It's basically, it looks like almost a little mini portable speaker. And it's got this felt cover and it creates a pulse magnetic field. And at the same time, it creates different sound vibrations, which are just tracks. And there's tracks. Some of the ones I love are Ocean Waves and the Schumann Resonance and...

Joel (14:13.818)
No.

Freddie Kimmel (14:41.432)
cat purring, my favorite is probably Tibetan singing bowls. And all I do is I push a button on this device and I set it on my chest when I'm ready to down regulate and go to sleep or maybe an hour before I'm ready to go to bed. Even when I'm watching Netflix sometimes and it creates this somatic vibration that I can feel. I put it right on my collarbone or I put it right on the sides of my, the left or right of my neck, right on my clavicle.

And the vibration and the pulse magnetics is just incredibly down regulating. And it's really helped me to, I gotta say, I probably had the best, I've had the best sleep I've had in like for two months, pretty, I think I've had it for two months, maybe three months. It's been pretty wild how effective it is and how simple, you know, what I love about, there's no protocols. There's no how to do it. You push the button, you set it on body and.

You be, you're going to go to sleep anyway, like you're saying. So I want you to add to, if you, if you were to describe somebody we passed in the street, what's harmonizer.

Joel (15:39.864)
Well first, you know, I remember when I sent you this I sent you I sent you one of these a sample and And then we talked we talked a few days later I think after you just used it one night and you said I got I got great sleep But it's been a while since I've got good sleep I got great sleep and then I got a text from you a few days later and you said three in a row

All right, three nights in a row. And it just kept going like that. And it's gotten to the point now where I've gotta have a couple of them next to my bed because I like to use two at once sometimes. But if, like if I forget it, if it's out in the living room or something, I've gotta go out and get it. Like I just know I'm gonna get better sleep. It's one of those things where I miss it. I miss it when I don't have it. That's, I wonder if it's almost a problem.

Freddie Kimmel (16:08.792)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (16:31.32)
Yeah.

Joel (16:36.631)
Like it's so, I like it so much. Maybe it's a little addictive, right? But it's, yeah, I mean, you know, you talk about PMF and all of that. And I think that the vibration, even though, you know, PMF, PEMF, all that is, you know, is sexy and it's a great form of energy, right? I see magnetic.

They're both delivering energy, just different forms, different wavelengths. But for me, it really started out thinking about vibration and acoustic vibrations. And I wanted initially just something that would purr like a cat, because my cats will purr. And that's a very interesting thing.

But it's very inconsistent and they don't want to be they don't want to be resting on me necessarily or if they do they're getting fur all over my face they're waking me up in the middle of the night it's obnoxious right but purring is an interesting thing I don't think it's really studied enough it has been studied to some degree but there's a lot there with respect to healing cats or cats will purr both to soothe and to heal themselves and other cats as well they've shown that those frequencies

will heal, will accelerate bone healing, things like that. So there's a lot of interesting kind of untapped avenues for low frequency vibrations, I think, these sort of naturalistic vibrations. And what I, you know, in the biohacking world, you know, we're taking supplements, we're doing all these things. You take a supplement, you have to take it on faith, at least for a while, right?

You might not feel anything. A lot of these things you're doing, you're taking it on faith. You've read an article, you've seen some papers, but I wanted something, I wanted to make something, I wanted to have something, not even make something, I wanted to have something that I could feel immediately that I didn't have to take on faith, that is kind of like a hopeful thing because it's right there.

Joel (19:01.843)
and I can put it on my chest when I'm laying down or I can have it on my leg, which I have one on my leg right now. And you can feel it working. You can just feel the relaxation. You don't have to read any research on it. You don't have to brainwash yourself and get yourself excited about, this supplement's gonna do this for me or that. You just try it and it works. That's it. You just have to hold it in your hand, put it on your body and feel it. So, yes, I look...

Freddie Kimmel (19:07.832)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (19:31.346)
I started to pay attention after I had made the initial prototype and I was looking just at cat purring as a frequency. And you don't have to like cats. Like this thing will work. You don't have to be a cat person. There's other frequencies too, right? So I started thinking about these other naturalistic frequencies. There's the Schumann resonance, which is this low frequency. It's 7 .83 Hertz. And it has to do...

with the Earth's atmosphere and fields created by lightning strikes. And so that was an interesting one to me. Then there's gamma frequency, which is around 40 hertz. There's a lot of research on these lower frequencies in the 40 hertz range. So I felt like it was good to play with that and potentially add that to Harmonizer as well. And then the ocean. Who doesn't love the ocean, right? And so...

And so, you know, engineering a track where you had that crashing of the waves and you could feel this rumbling on your chest. So reassuring. That's the one that the cats like, by the way. My cats love Harmonizer. We should get back to that later. And then the last one is the Tibetan Singing Bowls. That one seems to knock everybody out fast. And it seems to be the favorite. It's definitely my favorite. And it's not like a...

cat purring, everything else is a little more regular. The Tibetan singing bowls comes in and out. The bowl is struck. There's a strong vibration. You can sort of hear it and feel it. The bowl is sort of vibrating and warbling around, I guess you'd call it. And then it settles down. It gets quieter and quieter. And then it's struck again. And it's a fascinating and really bizarre experience when you're about to fall asleep. Sometimes you'll get these tingles when that

bowl is struck again. I'm sure you've noticed that. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (21:29.88)
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I want to go back and just touch on three points before I go forward with questions on device for the audience. Cause we've done so many podcasts with both aura wellness and magna wave and amp coil here. You know, PMF is a very common conversation in these last 200 episodes, 200 plus and.

Joel (21:38.928)
down.

Freddie Kimmel (21:56.76)
we're talking about a pulsed electromagnetic field that stimulates or encourages the natural recovery of the cell. And that is pulsed electromagnetic. So we're running an electronic field through usually a coil, and the coil is then generating a magnetic wave that's rolling or it's stopping and starting. When we talk about harmonizer, we're saying PMF. We're intentionally leaving out the E. So I just want to just...

Joel (22:09.263)
Yeah.

Joel (22:16.495)
Yeah.

Joel (22:23.695)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Freddie Kimmel (22:26.456)
Explain that to the audience pulse magnetic fields can suit you just talk about the little the mechanism that's a little bit different in this

Joel (22:33.167)
Totally, totally. Yeah, so we're not using an electromagnet. We're not passing current through a coil of copper wire, for example, to create an electromagnet. The magnets in Harmonizer, there are two, one on each end here of this thing, and they are both permanent magnets. They're permanent rare earth magnets. And so you have, when you turn an electromagnet, like a PEMF device off,

The magnetic field's gone. With Harmonizer, the magnetic fields are always there. They're always present. And the difference then for the pulsing is that the field is moving up and down perfectly in sync with the acoustic vibrations. So it's a different approach to this, well, I won't call it a problem, to this mode of trying to help.

down regulate the body and calm people down and You know and why I went with that well, I don't know it you know it just seemed to make sense to me because what I was what I was going after you know like I said before is is vibration first with this and But I but it is a fascinating thing and it seemed there seems to be some magic there around having the vibration a little bit of sound as well and then

those magnetic fields vibrating up and down. And you've got a pretty good distance there depending on your frequency. You're passing that permanent magnetic field, call it through maybe the distance of 40 red blood cells. Depending on the frequency, there's more info on the website about that for specific frequencies. But the whole issue of like,

nerding out on the technology and the specs. I feel like that is something we're doing so much in the modern age because we need that hope and that certainty. And we're looking in these rational ways at the world. And I think we've all become sort of hyper rational because we've landed in our brain.

Freddie Kimmel (24:32.952)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (24:57.451)
We've gotten out of the body. I think us becoming disembodied and becoming less intuitive are, it's not a coincidence that those things are happening at the same time. And so I really think about trying to make a product that intuitively works, that you can feel immediately, that doesn't have, you don't need a bloody subscription. You don't need a bloody app. And it,

Freddie Kimmel (24:57.88)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (25:09.4)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (25:26.666)
You don't need to track anything. I mean, do you need another device that tracks you? And frankly for me, my inner critic is pretty harsh. And if you're resonating with that, if you have a pretty harsh inner critic, maybe you don't need to be tracking things. Maybe take it on faith a little bit more. Feel how...

Freddie Kimmel (25:29.528)
Mm.

Joel (25:55.626)
your body is feeling and go with your own intuition and your own embodied feeling and knowing about how things are working and what you should be doing to make yourself feel better and, you know, whatever, more efficient, more productive, more happy, right? Tracking, all that stuff. I wanted to make something that was low tech in a lot of ways.

Freddie Kimmel (26:00.696)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (26:15.832)
Yeah.

Joel (26:26.569)
doesn't have a lot of buttons, that doesn't have a lot of lights and gadgets and gizmos and bells and whistles, taking away is almost more important than adding with device design, I feel like, product design.

Freddie Kimmel (26:39.032)
Yeah.

Yeah, it really can be. And I think, again, just the top of the conversation was meeting people where they're at, different personality and different personality types. I do think that there is such a predominant left brain activation within our society that we've lost. We've lost the ease. We've lost creativity. It's so funny. I went and I sang in a concert concert this weekend and just I had.

I was really nervous about it, but I was nervous about...

quality of the performance, the, tactile and technical analyst of the vocal performance. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't thinking about the people that I wasn't thinking about the 250 people that showed up for the, for community and song and the little kids. And, you know, I wasn't, I, I it's so funny. I'm all I could think about was like doing good and hitting a bar. And there was no thought of like the magic that always happens when you, when you give.

something that is your artistic gift freely to the world. And I would just, I would join with you in saying that the sometimes we are just so into the numbers and the stats, and we want to boil it down to the Newtonian way of, of what is the path that my cells get more energy. And that's all I want to know. But the feeling, man, you know, look at, you know, all the research around the somatic.

Freddie Kimmel (28:13.4)
experience and where the body holds these traumas and what that looks like. We really don't know anything. I'm looping that around too. I would just want to root and I want also want to say, and if you can, I think it's important to know in this day and age, because there is a lot of tech out there that you don't feel. I mean, I'm like, I have this on, I'm going to hold this up to the mic. Hold on.

Joel (28:23.27)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (28:45.272)
Can you hear that on your end?

Joel (28:46.406)
Yeah, yeah, that's the singing bowl, right?

Freddie Kimmel (28:48.792)
I think it's human. this is human. It has me so tingly in my heart. I was like, it's on my thigh. You know, I feel it. I feel it everywhere. It's it's, it is one of those things. So with that being said, just like the wave amplitude, because this audience is familiar to micro Tesla, you know, what is the density of the magnetic field created by these rare earth magnets? And we're looking anywhere from 8400.

Joel (28:51.654)
okay. I have shumman. Okay.

Joel (28:59.302)
Yeah, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (29:17.975)
100 micro Tesla to 9100 micro Tesla, that's quite strong. You know, many, there's many, PMF mats that are on the market for $6 ,000 that are in the realm of 60 to 130 micro Tesla. So the power of this device, albeit incredibly small, it's a strong, robust magnetic field coupled with the.

acoustic vibrations that do create a very unique feeling in my experience that, you know, my body hasn't normalized to, you know, it's, I really notice it. It's like, it's a bit, but I think it's because again, I think it's the somatic nature of vibration, which I'm, I'm, I use vibrational technology with the flow Presso team. You know, we have the vibrational one and the balls for the armpits and the face, head and neck to.

Joel (29:57.284)
That is the, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (30:15.576)
drain and move and support lymphatic flow, which you don't need to be a lymphatic manual drainage therapist. You can't, you can't do it wrong. You get it on the lymph node and the vibration does it for you. Right. So there's something very special about the design, which I keep, every time I use it, I'm just, I'm reminded of in the, in the, you're right. The Tibetan singing bowls hit you different than the cat purring.

Joel (30:40.035)
Yeah, the you know the the micro Tesla and all of that it's it's the power of the permanent magnets there's something about that about going with Something that in some ways is lower tech But hot but also I don't know. I don't know. It's a lower tech. It is just different It's different than you know spinning up a an electromagnet by passing current through

Freddie Kimmel (30:42.936)
from an emotional level anyway, that's my experience.

Joel (31:09.887)
Yeah, really powerful rare earth magnets and then just cycling that just to move that wave. It's always there. It's not like with a with a electromagnet You can turn that on and off and you know, I'm sure you can do some other stuff as well but this is just like It's it's constant. It's constantly there and then just cycling back and forth and you know, there's probably some You know, I really hesitant

Freddie Kimmel (31:11.16)
Yeah.

Joel (31:39.426)
The whole expert class thing, I've learned so much as a medical device engineer. I've seen over and over again areas in different fields like metallurgy or whatever where something is set in stone as just a fact, just an assumption for decades. And I've seen it overturned in, you know,

in the matter of just a few experiments and then papers get published on it and everything gets changed. And so I'm hesitant to speak with a lot of, I don't know, authority on any of this stuff because it is so new. But I feel like there's probably some real magic with having dual drivers on this thing. You have these.

Freddie Kimmel (32:26.2)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Joel (32:34.977)
two on each end of that device, two acoustic drivers. And the tracks are stereo. You don't just have a single field, a single magnetic wave field that is pulsing. You have two different fields that are cycling, sometimes in sync, sometimes out of sync. Sometimes you're getting a binaural kind of effect on the tracks to create additional vibration and additional interactions there. So.

Freddie Kimmel (32:56.28)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (33:05.12)
So instead, you know, a lot of people will pretend, I will just say that they'll pretend that they know everything about what is going on with, you know, particular technology or a field. And I just feel like I don't know what potential this thing has. There's all I know is the feedback, right? Like we've given, I've given out so many of these to people. And.

Freddie Kimmel (33:34.84)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (33:34.976)
And you know, the soul to fair a few too. But the feedback, all I care about is the feedback from people. You know, I don't care about the numbers and all that geeky stuff. And you got to put it on the website and you got to know all that. But again, it comes back to can you make a device or can you make something that creates an experience for someone where they don't have to take it on faith, where they feel it immediately, right?

Freddie Kimmel (33:44.984)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (34:03.448)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (34:03.552)
That's, that's a feel like where the real magic is.

Freddie Kimmel (34:07.416)
Yeah. I would, I would join with you in that a hundred percent. And I just want to echo, yeah, we don't know anything. You know, we don't, we don't know. We have, it's like we're shining a flashlight on an area of expertise and then a new science comes along or a new sample study. And all of a sudden people say, well, we'll look at over here. We forgot about this and everybody's understanding changes. And that's just been the pattern of is how science has evolved over time and throughout human history.

That's what we do. So I think we always have to bring that humility in and say, you know, this is what we understand today about the body and, and how to bring the body back into alignment and get better sleep. And then every once in a while we have this great, paradigm shift, right. And it usually leaps. It's like jumps forward.

Joel (34:52.414)
Yeah.

yeah. And you know, you've had enough guests on here that are absolute experts in this stuff. And so why belabor the points again? We could get into all that, but you know, I've got two sons, one of them has autism, and I wanted to make something that could be a reassuring little thing for him. And he doesn't have the kind of, you know,

super cool ass burgers where you put a hoodie on and you move to Silicon Valley and you start up a unicorn company, you know, his is his is more profound. And so that being said, he's not going to be able to, you know, that's really part of how I got into biohacking as well was trying to figure out how to help him. And I wanted to make sure, you know, you have to be conservative when you're working, when you're trying to help someone who can't articulate very well to you.

what they're feeling and how they're feeling. It's a very kind of low resolution communication. It's not very nuanced what he can share with us. You've got to be very conservative about what you're doing to help this person out. You don't want to take a lot of risks. You want to do something that you know is going to be safe, simple, easy to understand and is not.

is not too far out on the cutting edge, right? And so I'm always trying to make, I think about that as well, right? If you're gonna put something out there in the world for people to use, you wanna make sure, or at least I do, I wanna be fairly conservative about it. And that's, again, scratching my own itch, trying to make something for myself, make something for my family.

Freddie Kimmel (36:47.832)
Yeah. Can we talk more about your son? I think it's such a...

I love the story, I love what you're doing with your son. And so, in the process of making something for him that resonated and felt safe, what's your working relationship with your son? Because he's helping you on this project, correct?

Joel (37:12.122)
Well, yeah, I've got I've got two I've got two kids I mean they're both they're both testers for it for sure and Yeah, and in my son autism he'll help you know, he'll he'll help pack orders things like that, but I mean it's You know that it's been a long journey right like he's he's a he's an adult now he's 18 But when he was young when he was five

I remember we finally received a diagnosis from a specialist in the school district and we asked, we're very young parents, it was a long time ago, pretty naive, and we asked, well, is there anything we can do? And this woman said, no, there's nothing you can do. And in some respects, that's...

In some respects, that is dead wrong. And that led us down many rabbit holes and on a long and expensive and stressful journey to help him feel as comfortable in his body as possible and to help him feel as happy and fulfilled as possible. And what I learned along the way from that is there are so many anecdotes out there online.

You're trying to fix a problem that you have. And there are so many magic bullets. this is gonna help. This is gonna fix it, right? You can find all these anecdotes online. And you're entitled to the work, but you're not entitled to the outcome of that work. It's a saying that I come back to all the time. And you can make incremental progress. And sometimes you take a step back, but it is just part of the...

of that journey. And we're all on our own, Freddie. With respect to medicine and health right now, the institutions are so bloated and so confusing. And we are on our own. And we're not out in a desert. It's more of a jungle with just stuff everywhere. There's so much information out there. We have this godlike access to information.

Joel (39:39.223)
But I think we mistake that with, we confuse that with control. We think because there's all that information out there that we can actually fix things right away or that we have potentially more control than maybe we really do. And so having some humility and plugging away at it, doing what you can, I think is really all you can do, but we're all on our own, I think. And that's both a damn shame, but.

Also pretty exciting if you have the right temperament. And certainly you do, and I do as well. And I think people listening to this, your audience, they get it. Everyone out here is trying to help themselves, trying to help loved ones, family members, all of that. And it's a gift to have that responsibility, to adopt that responsibility.

and say, okay, I'm gonna work on myself, I'm gonna make myself better, I'm gonna try to help my family member, try to help them feel as comfortable as possible. That's a pain in the butt, and expensive, and a gift all at once. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (40:49.18)
Yeah, yeah. I would love to, I just get such a strong image of you as a young parent. You know, you've got a five -year -old son and you finally get your diagnosis. If you could go back experiencing all that you've been through now, what advice would you go back and give to yourself at that time?

Joel (41:19.349)
Well, we did a lot of the right things. We saw a specialist right away.

Joel (41:31.828)
You know?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure what advice I would have for myself. It was such a long slog. I think, well, probably on a practical note, probably just more water and more flushing out of toxins for that kid, just forcing him to drink more water. But that being said, so far as like a magic bullet or something I could recommend and say, I wish we would have done that sooner, we saw a specialist.

We got in with a good specialist right away. I think you need to lean on people. You can't know everything. And so leading on people that have done the journey already and being willing to try their protocols and do some doctoring yourself, you've got to make some adjustments. You can't always rely on everything. You've really got to pay attention to where your body's at or where that person you're helping is at.

in the moment and then you've got to make some adjustments to supplements or your protocol or whatever on the fly and just having real awareness of that. And yeah, I don't know. Maybe my advice would be buy Bitcoin and then I could have thrown just like ungodly money at that kid for treatments that would be utilized. Right?

Freddie Kimmel (42:35.832)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (42:57.176)
Yeah. Are you aware of the pizza day where they go back and look at what people had bought? They had bought in Bitcoin's infancy where they had bought like, you know,

Joel (43:01.426)
yeah. Yes. 64 Bitcoin or whatever it was, 62. I don't know what it was. You know. Yes. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (43:09.208)
or 200 Bitcoin bought like two pizza people would buy pizzas on the web. And now it's worth like, you know, the every slice is worth $6 million. So brutal, brutal perspective and change. Yeah, it's it's absolutely fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. yeah, that gets me it gets me right in the heart. It gets me right in the heart. No, you go. No, you go.

Joel (43:19.537)
brutality.

Joel (43:30.289)
See, you didn't have to think, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Okay, you didn't have to think about that stuff back in the day of the hunters and gatherers. I mean, you didn't have to think about Bitcoin and the FOMO and like all the stress, right? It just gets back to that again, just over and over again.

Freddie Kimmel (43:46.168)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (43:50.168)
Yeah. Yeah. How is your...

How is your relationship with your son today? Am I correct in saying you said he's not going to go start a unicorn company in Silicon Valley? Is your son nonverbal?

Joel (43:59.089)
Yeah.

Joel (44:02.577)
No.

He's, for many intents and purposes, yes. He's verbal in a way that we can understand. He's getting more verbal, but he's not great with that, right? And he's going to, I mean, the take home of all that is he's going to need to live, he's gonna need help his whole life, right? And so that's an intense thing to think about. I remember hearing someone,

who's maybe in their 60s, a father say, well, my kids are grown up and so I'm not afraid to die. I can die at any time. And when I heard that, it hit me so painfully because I realized I can't die for a long time. Like I've got to figure out how to set up, you know, set up a life for that kid and for my other son to be able to help him as well so that.

after I'm gone, he can be taken care of. I can't just rely on like state programs or federal programs for that. That's not an option. You know, I have to set up, set something up that's robust. And so it brings, it brings a real, and maybe that's even unfair for me to put on myself, but that brings a next level of responsibility and an intensity to things. And so.

guilt and then every time I you know eat something bad, it's like what have I done so But that you know that is just part of the journey that is just part of the journey and Yeah, it's I Guess it is a cliche and I think many parents of kids with special needs say it that they wouldn't have it any other way and I think that's true just because of

Freddie Kimmel (45:39.672)
Yeah.

Joel (46:02.349)
what any adversity does to a person if they can meet it head on. And yeah, it's your chance to have a beautiful relationship with your loved ones, to really be of service to people. I can tell that you have like a servant's heart, Freddie. You're here to help people, for sure. And...

Freddie Kimmel (46:08.184)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (46:21.72)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (46:27.064)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Joel (46:32.205)
I think we're both on that path just in different ways. You're out there. I'm trying to hide, trying to be an introvert and do it.

Freddie Kimmel (46:35.94)
Welcome to the podcast. it's good. It's good. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild sometimes to see you're like, my God, look at where these conversations reach. You know, it'll give you a little hits. It's like these little, little towns and northern Russia or villages in South Africa, everywhere all over the world. Countries I've never even heard of.

that people are tuning in, you know, and it's fascinating. We really are a global society. I want to, you know, I guess what I really want to hone in on is, you know, as a medical device and an engineer and someone with a true, I mean, you're such an adventurer, you're such a visionary. And bringing Harmonizer into an idea, into a physical...

a physical device which people can use and find value from. And again, in this year, your view of the world, what does the world need right now? We need a little less information. We need a little more embodiment is what I'm hearing from you. What's your vision for Harmonizer? Where would you like to see it integrated in society? And who is your ideal avatar for someone to use this product if you have one?

Joel (47:52.749)
Yeah, probably if you are a super PEMF nerd and you've got a high -powered devices, maybe this is for you, but maybe it's not. I don't know. I mean, I think it probably is still for you, but you might say, you might get hung up on the specs, right? You know, I've been looking a lot at, there's a clinic.

here where I live in Flagstaff, it's a ketamine clinic actually. They have, you introduced me, you introduced me to one of the owners. And they're doing other things. They're opening up a larger biohacking sort of wellness clinic with Flo Presso and other modes of helping as well. IV therapy, all this stuff, all the usual kind of biohacking clinic.

Freddie Kimmel (48:25.496)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (48:30.712)
Yeah.

Joel (48:50.765)
toys and gadgets, right? But also doing ketamine as well. And this is an interesting avenue, I think, to add this on. I hadn't even thought of the whole ketamine angle until I was talking with the two owners of this clinic. And one of them said, this would be great for helping people as they're going through this experience. So right now I'm working on a non -skid silicone rubber pad for this thing so you can put it on your body when you're

Freddie Kimmel (48:52.696)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (49:19.565)
in reclined position, not just laying flat, and it'll just stick to you. So that's a good thing. But I think, you know, I'm also paying attention to spas as well. Like, I think this is something that maybe it should be, I wanted to make something that was more accessible, right? Like a product where it's like, hey, put this down your pants. I mean, it's just too much, it's too much for people.

Freddie Kimmel (49:23.576)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (49:45.688)
Yeah.

Joel (49:49.037)
Right? Something you can just put on your chest. That's much more calming. And so, you know, I've been speaking with spas, for example, and let's say someone is getting like a shoulder and a neck and a face massage or something, and they're just in a relaxed state, and they've never heard of biohacking, and they don't know anything about anything with, you know, with all these advanced health techniques. But, you know, maybe that spa carries, they have Harmonizer, and they can,

put it on the person while they're getting this treatment already. And it just helps them to be a little more embodied with their breath. I mean, that is one of the most interesting things is just the intentional focus on breath. I put this on me. It's the only time I pay attention to my breath. The rest of the time, I'm shallow breathing, I'm in my head, I'm neurotic. It's a mess, right? It's a total mess. I'm not alcohol.

calm and she'll that like you, Freddie. So, so I'm too complimentary. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (50:50.872)
I'm pleased we all were what you know, we do the best we we do the best we can Yeah, we meet the body where it's at But we always I tell you when I do do those things when I do take intentional time out of the day Multiple times my day is so different. I'm I'm on the It's more intentional the the gap between stimulus and response is wider

I can feel myself making different choices because I'm more present.

Joel (51:17.805)
Yeah.

Joel (51:21.677)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the whole biohacking term, all that, it is so removed. I mean, and it sounds so weird and kind of creepy to outsiders. And so with Harmonizer, I wanted to make something that was far more accessible and not an alien kind of thing that looks intimidating or people are concerned about it. You have some giant, you know, PMF coil or something. It's like, what the heck is that? If you don't know.

You might have a little hesitation, right? And there are plenty of people who, or something that you just have to explain, my gosh, do you have to explain it to the person? Like the technology and it's gonna do this and do that? Forget about it. But instead, if it's like here, here, I turned it on, it's vibrating, here, put it on your chest, just feel it, right? And it does the thing, right? You put it on you and you can just feel it. And so,

Freddie Kimmel (51:53.784)
Yeah.

Joel (52:21.293)
So I think we need more hope in the world and more presence, right? And so trying to do something that just adds a little extra slice to the day for people where they feel a little bit better, where their nervous system is calmed down a little bit without them having to do anything. I mean, even meditation is a huge ask for people. Huge ask, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (52:42.488)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (52:49.016)
Can be, can be. Yeah.

Joel (52:51.629)
And so many people fall off the wagon. I mean, you do it for a while, then you stop. It's a huge ask for so many people. And so, yeah, just finding something that takes no effort.

Freddie Kimmel (52:58.936)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (53:07.768)
Yeah, it's a good spot to meet people where they're at. And I will also say that sometimes it's the one little shift that moves your awareness enough where you do feel a 10 to 15 % increase in energy, and then you can find another thing you add in and it becomes like this snowball. And that's what it was for me, you know, there's certain things that are just non -negotiable. I'll only go so many days without being in a sauna or a cold plunge.

I just get extreme value quality of life is better pain is reduced and I can't I'm a believer because now it's a felt experience and I understand what my life is without it and with it. So I'll keep it. You know, you need the gateway drug. Yeah. But if we can just remember, you know, the last thing I want to offer to people as we get close to our hour here is that your nervous system calls out the shots.

Joel (53:48.493)
Yeah, you need the gateway drug, basically.

Freddie Kimmel (54:04.088)
for all organ function and the tension index in your tissue. It's not necessarily always beating a stubborn piece of fascia into submission with like a racquetball. Sometimes, most times, it is the psyche that's deciding to hold that tension. We prove that out again and again and again. So again, this is a great, from my experience, harmonizer is a great piece of tech to work with nervous system tone and again, remind it.

that if we can get just a little deeper rest, better quality sleep, we'll have a better chance of more of these things being needle movers. my God, I wanna switch, hold on, I wanna see this. I better wanna do the all show. I'm holding this up to the, hold on. I wanna switch tracks. Stormy ocean waves.

Freddie Kimmel (54:55.832)
Stormy ocean waves. Hold on, let me go one more. Wait.

Joel (54:57.101)
There it is.

Freddie Kimmel (55:08.664)
It's good, right? I love the cat purring.

Joel (55:10.797)
Yeah, yeah, I didn't want it to be too loud, right? It's acoustic vibration, right? You're getting some sound, but not a whole lot of sound. Yeah, yeah, that's right, totally. Yeah, not a whole lot of sound, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (55:20.184)
Yeah.

but a physical vibration too, like my hands are moving while this is in my hands. I wanna find Tibetan singing bowl. Gamma. Schumann really calms me.

here we go.

Freddie Kimmel (55:48.248)
I love it.

Joel (55:49.293)
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's just got the the two buttons, right? I want to make something that that you could just feel at night when you're in bed. You don't have to look at the thing on off button and then an adjustment button.

Freddie Kimmel (55:53.432)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (55:58.616)
Right. Yeah. There's the, we got an on and then we double press the dual button to change the track. That's pretty easy.

Joel (56:08.525)
Yeah, you hold that, you either click to adjust volume up or down, or you hold down to adjust the track. That's it, it's so simple. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (56:16.472)
Yep. So simple. Yes. Two buttons. Joel, we have a code for this product on and it is on beautifully broken dot world. It's in the store. Harmonizer is in the store. There's a discount. How much does harmonizer cost? Remind me for a device. $300. Great USD. And it's so affordable for how strong it is and what it does. I'm super excited because that's a much lower price point when we usually talk about this.

Joel (56:33.677)
300, USD, yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (56:46.424)
device range and the transducers and the magnetic field and the gas and all those things. We didn't get too much on what is the value proposition or how does someone get started. Do you want to add anything into the price and affordability?

Joel (57:07.693)
Well, you just got to check out the website, I suppose, if you want to see if you want to see all the, you know, the tech specifications and all of that. You know, but it's for me, it's about being able to add some extra relaxation and down regulation to my nervous system. With essentially zero effort and zero time, because I'm and and.

Freddie Kimmel (57:18.808)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (57:37.854)
just getting better sleep, getting to sleep faster. Right? I remember sending it to someone and getting a text. Yeah, so someone who got one, I got a text like a couple days later, they just said, it knocked me on my ass. I thought that was a fantastic review. Knocked me on my ass. I mean, to be able to get to sleep faster, to get some better sleep, to be able to feel a little bit of calm.

Freddie Kimmel (57:41.304)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (57:54.744)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (58:06.584)
Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And so the code is beautifully broken. You can use that in the cart on the website, which is H A R N I Z R harmonize. We'll have that in the show notes. And then can I ask you two more questions, Joel? All right. beautifully broken podcast. it's about putting the broken pieces back together. What does it mean to you to be beautifully broken?

Joel (58:06.845)
To me, it's priceless.

Joel (58:38.973)
It's, my goodness, it is about connection and it is about.

It is about the journey of, it's an alchemical journey, right? It is about going through some kind of hell and getting to the other side of that. And everyone has, everyone is suffering with something. Everyone is. You can look at other people and you think they have it all and they're quietly suffering. Everyone is. And so having some empathy for that and some acknowledgement of that.

and to see yourself and other people in that regard, I think is really important. And to see the potential for you to kick ass and be a hero to yourself and to people that you're helping. To be able to, yeah, it's an alchemical journey, turning lead into gold, turning that pain into some prosperity, into...

into something better for yourself and those around you.

Freddie Kimmel (59:50.872)
beautiful and you get a magic wand. You can tune in all the television stations, all the cell phones into channel Joel Green for 30 seconds. What would you say to the, no, it's not, no, it's not. What do you say to the people of the world? You get, you get 30 seconds. What would you say to your brothers, your sisters, your community?

Joel (01:00:02.522)
Horrible idea. Horrible idea.

Joel (01:00:15.194)
I have the humility to know that that would be a terrible idea for me to have that kind of power, right? So I'd probably go back and find something that someone else smarter and smarter than me said You know something probably See the problem with that is advice is autobiography, right? Advice is autobiography and And I think about that a lot like what I say what?

Freddie Kimmel (01:00:19.128)
I love it.

Freddie Kimmel (01:00:38.072)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (01:00:45.305)
you scratch your own itch, right? You make it, you know, I didn't make this thing because I'm so calm and I'm so zen. It's because I'm neurotic and I just need to get a little more peace in my life, right? And so that's the problem, I'm too in my head about this. But, you know, it'd probably just be some John Lennon thing about how all you need is love, right? Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:00:47.448)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:10.872)
Yeah, that's usually, I just, as you had stalled and I was like, I was like, what would I say? I would probably, I'd start with I love you. I mean, that just like comes up for me that I would want everybody to know in this day of separation and we're feeling such divide across all things from the medical to the political to the, we could go on and on, but that truly, truly, truly beyond all those things and.

Joel (01:01:13.4)
Right. Yeah.

Joel (01:01:20.12)
Yeah.

Joel (01:01:33.624)
Yeah. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:40.76)
differences of opinion and worth that I love. I love you. Yeah.

Joel (01:01:46.072)
Yeah. And maybe put your phone down. Maybe I'd say that too. Put your phone down. I love you, put your phone down. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (01:01:53.368)
That's great. That's great advice. Well, we'll certainly do it again. And I just want to thank you for being a guest on the beautifully broken podcast. Celebrate your work.

Joel (01:02:01.368)
Thank you, Freddie. Thank you. This is beautiful. I love talking with you.

Freddie Kimmel (01:02:04.152)
Yeah.

Awesome man, big love.