Stem Cell Therapy Unveiled: Costs, Risks, and Groundbreaking Advances with Dr. Mattias Bernow

WELCOME TO EPISODE 222

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Beautifully Broken podcast.
I'm so excited you're here to join Doctor Matthias Bearnau from Cell Collabs.
We're going to talk about stem cells today.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you Freddy, so happy to be here.
And for for the audience, where are you located?
4:25
Where are we podcasting from right now?
I'm casting from Stockholm, Sweden where Cell Clubs is founded and located and this is where we do the production of our stem cells.
My goodness, let's just jump in.
If I were walking down the street and I bumped into you and you said this is what I do, I work with stem cells, what would you tell the average goer, the layperson, that a stem cell is?
4:48
Oh, the stem cell.
Stem cells act as the primary building block of all living organisms and the cells possess the capacity of self renewal and can develop into different tissues.
That's the short version then when people ask so, but tell me more.
5:03
I know nothing about stem cells.
And then, well, that's not entirely true.
Most of us know that at the very beginning, sperm, its egg and then this starts to develop.
And then if it becomes into child and then all through life, when we're born and then all through life, we actually have a stem cell reservoir who then rebuilds us when as we grow older, when we are hurt or when we are deceased.
5:24
But over time, the number and the potency of stem cells, they decrease and, and around 3040 the numbers and the potency really starts going down a bit more.
And and you can kind of correlate it to just looking at the person and depending on how old they look and the signs of aging, you kind of know how potent and how many stem cells they do have.
5:47
That's something that I've heard quoted before that our circulating stem cell supply starts to diminish pre dramatically.
I've heard around 3033 years old and the, the way I would correlate this is, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge snowboarder.
I love snowboarding.
6:03
I love being on the mountain and the tricks and the daring level of, you know, things that I would do off a jumper in the snowboard park are dramatically, it's almost nothing now 'cause now I'm today I'm 46.
So it's really gotten to the place where I just go to the mountain and I want to ski and I want to not get hurt.
6:22
But I, when I was 18, you know, we would go and we build a jump and we would be trying backflips and landing on her head and popping right back up.
Everybody was fine.
You know, nobody had a serious accident and I would assume.
Still immortal.
You woke up the next day and you were fine.
At 43, you wake up in the morning and feel like there's no pain today.
6:39
It's a good day.
Yeah, man, the no pain I, I also think, man, if I ever open a clinic, I would call it Move Pain Free 'cause that's one thing.
As I get older, I do notice even with all the bio hacks and the Wellness and longevity practices that I lean into, that it is a real thing.
6:57
You're like getting up in the morning to go to the bathroom.
I'm like, wow, I'm kind of stiff right now.
This is really interesting.
How my body has changed is the other thing that I've noticed just this year is eyesight.
Now my visual field.
Everything, if I'm looking around, is perfect.
But if I pick up a really small bottle of supplements, I was like, Oh my goodness, I may have to get a set of readers.
7:17
It's close.
Yep.
Well, look at me, I'm 43.
I've been wearing it.
These glasses, I can drive without them.
I I can place porch without them.
But when I'm in front of the screen, if I want to read or really look at it, I need them.
Yeah, it's fascinating how the body changes over time when I reference stem cells and in our endogenous production of stem cells, what type of stem cells does the body create?
7:42
The body does not really create them.
They're created when we're born and then you have reservoir and of course they divide over time as we use them so that we have a continuous supply of them.
As we said earlier, that supply diminishes over time and the potency diminishes also over time.
And I think that's a great bridge into the stem cells that we are working with.
8:01
And while I may be the CEO of the company, what is really interesting is the science and the professor behind it all.
So maybe to give you a short introduction to you and your listeners, who am I and, and why am I here and why should you listen to me at all?
Well, I'm just a regular guy from the southern part of Sweden.
8:17
I, I moved to Stockholm more than 20 years ago at this Business School.
At that time everybody was going to London to become bankers, come from a family of doctors.
I didn't see that as my future, really, working too much, earning much more money than the Swedish doctors.
But anyway, so I changed from Business School to Med school at Karolinska University or Institute instead, which is the leading Medical University in Europe, the Medical University who decides every year who gets the Nobel Prize in medicine.
8:44
And from day one I understood well.
Becoming a physician is amazing.
This is what I want to do though the students at Business School, they were a bit more extrovert, which suited me better.
So I kept hanging out in in both places in some in some kind of manic episode.
A few years later I ended up with double degrees.
9:00
So I've been moving between those two worlds over the past 10 plus years now I've spent seven years as a clinical physician, half of that time in the ER for grown-ups at Kalinski University Hospital and half of that time in GP offices is around Sweden and Norway.
I spent my time as a management consultant with Boston Consulting Group working with healthcare, and eight years ago by now I've kind of found my way home as an entrepreneur.
9:23
Co founded one of Sweden's largest digital platforms for physical healthcare to be able to do telemedicine and meet their patients in a responsible and effective way.
And three years ago I got the call that changed my life.
One of the most prominent businesswomen of Sweden called me, said Mattis.
9:38
We've seen your background.
It looks very interesting for us because we're now going to found the world's biggest stem cell company based on research from one of the world's most well renowned professors of clinical stem cell research from Kalinski Institute.
She has devoted her entire life to 1 certain kind of stem cell, which is called mesemchymal stem cells or just MSS.
9:58
And they have been found over the past 20 plus years to A, have a very interesting safety profile and B, to have three features where there's a consensus in the scientific community around how they work and why that is interesting.
And those three things are they're anti-inflammatory inflammation, as you know, is the main driver behind chronic diseases, behind aging, and also behind cancer or many types of cancer.
10:25
So a anti-inflammatory, B, they're regenerative and can help heal damaged tissue, whether it is the minor damages to your knee cartilage after running 5K in the morning or if you're in a car crash or if you have a diabetic ulcer to your foot, for example.
10:40
So a inflammatory, anti-inflammatory, B regenerative and C hard word for a Swedish speaker, immunomodulatory, meaning that they can help rebalance or reset the immune system when it goes out of spec or when it goes rogue.
I think everybody knows of diabetes type 1 being autoimmune disease.
10:56
The cells cannot be used to cure diabetes type 1 at not at least not yet today.
But in clinical trials for example, they have been shown to uphold the insulin production for longer for people who have been hit by diabetes type 1.
And we can get back to the science and all different indications, but to paint a really broad picture, you can throw a dart at a hospital organogram and whatever clinic you hit, there's an ongoing trial.
11:19
And so there are hundreds of ongoing trials around the world, and all of them initially confirmed the safety profile.
And then there are more or less successful.
But we are really at the, I would say, an inflection point in the history of healthcare where stem cells and some other therapists will make a huge change in the way we look at the health and the life and the longevity.
11:44
There's a great quote by a former Dean at the Harvard School of Medicine who said that stem cell therapies have the potential to do for chronic diseases what antibiotics did for infectious diseases.
And while that's a great one liner, what did he really say?
Well, eight years ago, before Alexander Fleming invented rather discovered, as you know, penicillin, you could cut your hand and die from blood poisoning.
12:05
Children died young from simple infections.
Elderly and frail people as well.
Even people like you in mid life with good health could die from what is today considered fairly simple infections with the antibiotics.
That is not the big problem in our part of the world at the moment.
Instead, now, eight years later, we die from chronic diseases, heart infarctions, stroke, Alzheimer's, diabetes and we suffer from arthritis and other signs of ageing and disease burdens.
12:31
That diminishes the quality of life.
And while Western medicine over the past 50 years has made us live longer, it has not extended the healthy years between 18 and 40 or 55.
It has extended the years between 55 and 85 where we're not in full health anymore.
12:49
And this is where I, as an MD, hope that the mesemical stem cells will really come into use.
Because while we see from research that they have great potential to heal or take alleviate some of the disease burden or maybe in some cases even cure.
This is what I am truly hoping for is the potential in the stem cells to offset the Crohn's disease system, delay them so to prolong our healthy lifespan.
13:14
And that is what why I think this is truly interesting.
And I think also This is why there is such a huge interest in in these cells around the world from longevity enthusiasts and people interested in in into their personal health.
Yeah, yeah.
It's fascinating.
There's so many places I want to jump back in.
13:30
I pronounce it mesenchymal.
That's what that's what I've always said.
That might that might be wrong.
I'm a Swedish speaker, so don't listen to me but.
No.
I mean I've heard it pronounced a bunch of different ways, but can we go a little bit deeper on you said the safety profile, the anti-inflammatory profile and then the the efficacious nature of mesochymal.
13:49
Where does a mesenchymal stem cell come from?
Where is it harvested from?
Well, let's dive straight into the the naming discussion.
And while MSE is the common denominator as as an acronym, initially they were named Mesem chemical or mesenchymal stem cells.
14:06
Then due to this is to your question and where do they come from?
Well, they come from connective tissue also called stroma in medical language.
So then they've also been called mesem chemical stromal cells.
And now that we know how they function, there's a discussion if they should be renamed, rebranded and medicinal signaling cells.
14:26
So MSA.
So let's just stay at that.
And where do they come from?
They come from the connective tissue.
And there are, they can come from different tissues, but there are 4 globally that are mostly used.
It is bone marrow, it is adipose tissue, fat, it is umbilically cords and placental tissue.
14:43
And those are the four that has been used most in published science.
If you speak to a bone marrow professor like professional blonde behind, behind cell clubs, he would say bone marrow cells are are the best.
And if you speak to to an adipose or fat guy, he would say, well, adipose tissue is the best.
14:58
And same goes for placental and and umbilical cords.
If you look at the published science and I'm a bone marrow CEO, but if I I always speak, I try to stick to science and and speak in full transparency.
If you look at science, there is no science to date that I know if that can where you can make the claim that one source is better than the other.
15:16
It is all about choosing the right donor, the optimal donor, harvesting the cells in the right way, transporting them in the right way to your FDA approved clean room facility, manufacturing them, meaning making them grow in, in an optimal way, then harvesting them and cryopreserving them in the, in the, in the right way, preserving them or keeping them in, in the, in the low enough temperature.
15:40
And then when you transport them, transport them in the right way.
And then once you are about to use them, throw them in the right way, wash them in the right way.
Check them for sterility and viability because they're, if they're not alive anymore, they won't harm you, but they won't help you probably.
15:56
So it's all about this being metaculous in every part of this chain that is important to to get you right.
So that's for the potency of the cells or the thickness of the cells.
There is one small differential though, and that's when it comes to risk.
16:11
If you go with adipose tissue, fatty tissue or placental or umbilical cord, there is a small, but still a small risk for forming blood clots.
And then you can get pulmonary embolism, which may at worst case be terminal.
So when you hear about people doing stem cells in countries around the world in in grey zones and in stem cell tourism, that is most probably what has happened.
16:34
Either it's the the pulmonary embolism or it's that the cells were not sterile and you get an infection.
But with the umbilical cord, the placental and the adipose ratio, there's a small risk.
So if you use those cells and you can do that, if you have a good and a responsible doctor, you can offset that risk using heparin or another blood thinner.
16:53
Those 3 cell sources are also initially pro inflammatory which is not very nice giving initial side effects like fever and and they could be pain for example if you do a knee that can also be offset using cortisone which is being done all around the world.
So if you go to a lesser stem cell tourist place and you get adipose tissue cells and you feel really good from the get go, then you know that you've had a lot of cortisone which has nothing to do with the stem cell effect and then you hope that the stem cell effect will kick in later.
17:22
The upside of using bone marrow is that they are anti-inflammatory from the get go and they don't form blood clots.
And to put this really in the layman terms that everybody understands why, well, my question to you Freddie, what is the biggest risk for mother and child at delivery?
17:37
What is the biggest risk for mother?
Well, that the mother would would die during childbirth.
Yes, for both mother and child is bleeding to death as they're separated, yes.
So obviously the cells from the umbilical cord and the placenta, they're highly pro coagulant.
And in the same way, it's quite easy to understand that you should not take fatty tissue and put it in the bloodstream that is also not good for your blood.
17:59
While when you take the cells from the bone marrow and bone marrow is the blood forming organ for those that don't know that.
So the bone marrow produces the blood.
If you take the MSS from the bone marrow and you put them in the bloodstream, they're at home.
So that is why it's easy to explain why bone marrow cells they don't form blood clots and they're not initially pro inflammatory.
18:18
So the safety profile is clearly more beneficial for bone marrow cells than other cells when it comes to the potency all the cells sources of this for if they're harvested and and produced in the right way, they all are anti-inflammatory, regenerative and immuno military in a positive way.
So it then it goes back to choosing the right donor.
18:37
And if there's one thing and one thing alone I want your listeners to take away from our conversation today, it is not the acronym MSA, but the acronym GMP, Good Manufacturing Practice.
Now MSCGM.
PMP, more stem cells is easy.
18:55
Everybody will know and remember that.
But GMP is the most important thing that I want everybody to know.
Good manufacturing practice.
If you've ever taken a medical drug, whether it is within the regulatory frameworks, whether it's an Advil or if it's hormones or if it's chemotherapy or cell therapy, it has always been GMP.
19:14
That is the highest quality level for pharmaceutical production.
It is the only level for pharmaceutical production for things that are supposed to be used in humans, whether you swallow it, inject it or use it in any other min.
Yeah.
When we talk about Mesenchymal and we talk about this good manufacturing practice, what I'm hearing people, especially in my community, there's like this.
19:36
We mentioned there's medical tourism.
And so people are realizing the cost of a stem cell procedure in the United States and it's very limited through the regulatory bodies, what type of cells that you can do.
I want to just bookmark that and go back.
But people are going to Mexico, they're going to Ecuador, they're going to Turkey, they're going all over the world because they can get it at a fraction of the cost.
19:57
So I'm starting to hone in that there's probably a cost associated with this procedure.
That is a part of this good manufacturing process, correct?
Yes, there is.
When you do production according to GMP, that's probably the most expensive way you can manufacture a medical drug, but it is also the only way you should ever manufacture it for use in humans.
20:20
The next lower level is called GLP.
That is good laboratory practice.
That is for the researchers when they work at the lab bench or when they work in animals.
And if you go to Mexico, China, India, the Caribbean or or elsewhere, it is not GMP.
You get GLP cells at best or even worse.
20:38
And I fully respect people who, who have a problem, for example, and they choose to go to Mexico and pay $5000 instead of, I don't know, 20 or 25.
It depends on, on where you go around the world.
I I fully understand that people have different financial means and they want to avoid surgery or pain or be able to work longer or play with their grandchildren.
20:57
Though you said that the cost is lower.
Yes, in financial means, in monitoring, it's an absolute number of U.S. dollars.
It's a lower cost, but it is associated with health costs or risk to get an infection or to get non working cells.
21:13
You expose yourself to risk when you do GLP cells without or outside the regulatory framework or outside the clinical trial if it's not an approved product.
So the risk or or the cost may be substantially higher.
And many people they don't suffer from this side effect and they make it.
21:28
But the fews who don't come home, they pay the price and you don't know before you go if you're going to be lucky or less less lucky.
So there is a huge cost to not doing GMP cells and This is why it's so important.
I can tell you the back story on on our company to really underline this.
21:47
The professor behind tech clubs is really worth mentioning because while I'm the CEO and fairly commutative, I'm not the person of interest.
I'm standing on the shoulders of a giant Professor Katarina LeBlanc from Kalinski Institute in Stockholm.
She's had spent her life working with Miss M Como stem cells.
22:03
When she started the field, I think there were like 3 or 500 published papers mentioning emesis.
She then together with the peers of her time showed that the cells can be used for people with grass versus host.
It's, it's a bone marrow transplant side effect or related problem and it's being treated with cortisone.
22:19
And if that does not work the, the patients and they have very bad life quality or they die.
She showed that using MSS for GVHD graft versus host, she could save the life of at least of around, I think 50% of the patients.
It was very big, was published in Nature 2004 and then again 2009 and the third feed just blew up.
22:37
To date there are closer to 100,000 published scientific papers mentioning MSS in in one way or or the other.
And Professor Nablaw over the years, she being an academic in Sweden, you can do Phase 1 two trial, but then you're not funded to drive it all the way through to your registered product.
So she then looked at diabetes type 1 Ms. toxic organ failure in collaboration.
22:56
She just looked at the chronic hoarseness and other indications and from again and again and again she helped showing the OR reconfirming the safety profile and the initial high potential of the cells for these indications.
23:12
Fast forward to 2020, in the early pandemic, Professor Bloch understood that for those who fell really ill, those were the light white lung syndrome and super inflammatory storms.
We went under intensive care and died like flies.
She understood that the mesangular stem cells could probably be used for treating this condition and she was approved by the Swedish FDA called the Swedish Medical Products Agency and Production Board.
23:32
She was approved to treat patients in in Sweden with this indication.
And the problem she ran into was she she could not acquire enough cells.
Even Kalinski University Hospital who was producing for her trial, could not produce enough cells for her.
So only 70% of the, they include the patients ever got treated and the, the results are not published yet.
23:53
So I, I am not allowed to quote them.
But the similar trial was conducted at Mount Sinai in New York with fantastic results.
And that is when professor well said, well, enough is enough and one of the leading professors using Mesemekom stem cells from bone marrow.
And when even I can't have enough cells, there's a problem in the market.
24:10
So she said to the investors behind the cell clubs, if you found a company to set up industrial scale, large scale industrial production of the Mesemekom stem cells in order to make them available and affordable, you can use my life work of science and I'll support you in doing so.
So that is the journey that we've been on over the past three years where we've raised money, we've done the tech transfer both from professional law and the Kelly's University Hospital.
24:34
We have scaled up more than 100 times.
We have validated the process.
We've applied to and been approved by the Swedish FDA for GMP production for the cells for investigational use.
In parallel, of course, we've recruited a organization of superstars and to date we're selling the cells to five countries on three continents with the true aim to improve health globally by making Mesemko stem cells available and affordable.
25:00
We've already cut prices by more than 50%, which is quite a lot given how high the prices still are.
And our goal is to cut or slash prices really another 8090% over the next decade to make them, them truly available.
And, and to be frank and honest, at the end of the day, not everybody will be able to pay for it.
25:18
But in most parts of the world, we pay for healthcare out of pocket.
And if the broad middle class around the world may be China, India or or elsewhere can pay for it out of pocket, then we've done something really good.
And that's the journey that we're on.
And yes, we're a Swedish company.
25:34
I think we're one of the fastest growing pharma companies over here.
While we do a lot and I have a great staff and and fantastic investors, there's just no way we can do this alone.
We're a small dog with a big bark, but we're standing on the shoulders of professional LeBlanc.
And that is why we're now approached by major companies, by rigidatory authorities around the world asking how can we work together with you to make the MSM call stem cells available for our nationals.
25:58
And yeah, well, that's the journey we're on.
So we're very humble and very lucky to be in this field and we get a lot of questions from people asking what is important when it comes to stem cell therapy.
What is important if I'm thinking about going to Mexico, if I have this indication or if, how do I set up a clinical trial using your cells or, or how can we make this available?
26:17
How can we improve our regulatory frameworks?
As you hear, this is my line of work, but I'm also very passionate about it.
It's, it's my hobby and and it's a journey that we're on and it's super important and we're happy to do it not alone, but with all of our partners globally because at the end of the day, if you let.
26:32
Me ask you, have you, have you had a stem cell procedure?
I have, I have twice actually.
Well I'm sitting here in Stockholm as now as the CEO of the production company.
But our company except for settling to clinical trials, Med tech companies, biotech companies and research groups and clinics around the world where they are either used as an investigational product or where their frameworks allow them to to use them in, in other settings.
27:02
We have a subsidiary called the Cell Clubs Clinical where our goal is to help accelerate the research even further and it's located in the Bahamas where we're on two clinical trials. 1 is a truly longevity trial.
It's a cardiovascular disease prevention trial where we know from other organisations research on bone marrow diatomin synchronous stem cells that they may have an effect to decrease the risk of Michael heart infarction and stroke.
27:30
And in that clinical trial is a phase three trial by another company, not ourselves, but bone maraderitimuses, they showed that with one treatment, one time, they could lower the risk of myocardial heart infection by more than 50%.
I think the number was 63 percent.
One treatment better than over 2 1/2 years for heart infection.
27:48
Incredible.
Same patient group and this was a big phase, 3500 participants, 250 placebo, 250 received the cells.
So there's actually comparison which is important to know.
And if you look at the cell group, they had a decreased risk of heart infection by 63%.
That's crazy.
28:03
They had a decreased risk among those with the the highest inflammatory markers.
They had a decreased risk for stroke also by more than 50%.
I think the number was 67%.
And this is when the science becomes truly interesting and not only to treat the disease, which they didn't manage so well in that trial, but where they, from A, when you look at it, it seems like they prevented the onset of other diseases, both microhardial functions and stroke.
28:27
And that is the reason for the trial that we're running in the Bahamas, cardiovascular disease prevention, to see if we can replicate that and make it even better.
And we're going to need to treat huge numbers to be able to show that this is actually true.
And then also then we have another child for musculoskeletal disease and degeneration.
28:43
So if you have arthritis, for example, or if you have pain in a joint or soft tissue, it's possible to get the local injection.
And the cardiovascular trial, it's a five year trial which will probably be extended over much longer time, while the musculoskeletal trial is a one year trial.
And the reason for us being in the Bahamas is that they have a very, very, very good framework when it comes to running clinical trials.
29:03
It's very much like the FDA in the US or or the EMA framework in Europe.
It's quite square and sturdy, which is good because at the end of the day it's all about protecting the participants and protecting the patients and making sure that we do sound research.
Then they have one thing that truly differentiates Bahamas and that they open up for patient funded clinical trials.
29:24
And the reason why you don't see longevity trials around the world is that they're too expensive to finance.
You need too many participants.
So even big pharma, they don't really find the money to do it and it's really difficult to do while in the Bahamas where there are people in demand of the cells, they can partly Co finance the trial.
29:43
So we cover part of the cost and they cover part of the cost.
And as a participant then of course it's it's not placebo.
So those who pay for it, they do receive the sales.
I was going to say, if I paid for the placebo I'd be very upset.
You would be disappointed, truly disappointed, even though the placebo effect may be positive.
30:00
It may be very potent.
Yeah.
When you charge for a trial, you have a certain kind of clientele and they expect a high service given the price points.
So we had done our dry runs, but we needed to do a live run.
So that is why they need to send a Guinea pig to be the first participant of the trial and and test it all through.
30:19
So that was a long answer to your short question.
Have you tried it?
The answer?
Yes.
Yeah.
So let me ask you, what were your results, if you could just give us a a few minutes on what your experience was?
Now we do get into the tricky Gray zone because if I would mention my results, then I would oh.
You're in the trial, so you can't do that.
30:35
Let let's skip that question.
Yeah, let's get that.
What?
I can say what I can say about the trial is that we have included over the past ten months the 1st 100 participants.
We've submitted the first safety report to the National Stem Cell Ethics Committee in the Bahamas confirming the safety profile.
30:53
And we look forward to communicate our results as soon as they are published because that is the way responsible companies operate.
Exciting.
Maybe we can do a touch base in the future when you are able to talk about those.
That would be exciting for me.
I want to drill down a little deeper.
So there's a a clinical trial that is one year that is for specifically looking at heart disease and that's a limited time stamp because you want to put that data forward as soon as possible.
31:18
And then you can also elect to buy into other trials where we could do something just like a knee or a joint and where people are getting this level of service and it's it's located in.
Yes.
In the Bahamas.
And just small correction, the cardiovascular disease prevention trial is a five year trial.
31:35
So you get treated once and then we follow you over five years.
And then we compare to data that we buy from registers where it's a risk matched, age matched and, and matched in every possible way to see if there's, if one treatment lowers the risk of chronic disease measured as primary outcomes.
31:50
Hard infarction, stroke, I think secondary is Alzheimer's, diabetes, arthritis.
And then we follow a lot of different blood works as well.
But it's a, it's a approved as a five year trial.
But by everybody listening to this podcast, understand that as we include people from 25 to 85, if you have a heart disease and you're 83, we don't need that many to show an effect if there is an effect.
32:13
But if we choose to, to, to treat 40 years old in, in full health, we're going to need higher numbers and probably 10/15/2020, five years of follow up time to be able to show significance in that group, if there is any.
But that's what we're all about.
Instead of, for example, I mean, speaking to your crowd maybe who might be interested in doing stem cell therapy as part of stem cell tourism.
32:35
If you go to a clinic elsewhere where you can just buy a treatment, whether it's rogue or, or accepted somehow within regulatory frameworks, you go there, you get treated, you go home.
Yeah.
And that is why I, I strongly encourage you if you're interested in doing this, to do it not with us necessarily, but with anyone.
32:55
A dude within a clinical trial where you, there is an inclusion, exclusion criteria, making sure that it is safe for you and that there is a potential benefit for you.
You do the work up, you do the check everything and if you're eligible and if it is safe for you, then you're included into the trial.
33:11
You then get the treatment and then you're followed up.
You're not only sent away, but you're followed up in every part of your journey, which is super important for you as an individual, for your family because they care about your health.
But also if you're part of a trial, you actually help accelerate the research as such, which is important for the global community and for all those who cannot afford a stem cell therapy today.
33:36
Because over time once it's approved, it will be covered by insurances and well depending on on the frameworks around the world, it will be scaled up and it will be cheaper over time.
It's certainly something that comes into the conversation more and more and, and I know there's different lifestyle practices and essentially if we if we look at the tenants that would complement the regulatory systems of the body, things like morning sun exposure, exposure to cold, 8 hours of sleep, clean robust food, going to the gym.
34:04
You know, there's ways to complement our own innate stem cell production.
There's a gentleman Christian Gapot that has a supplement called Stem Regen, which boosts are release of polyplural stem cells, which shows some good efficacy.
There's lots of things that I'm doing.
I've never done a procedure yet and it's a big investment.
34:22
You know, I've looked at prices anywhere like you said, anywhere from 5:00 to like a single joint anywhere up to $25,000.
I know we can go well beyond that as far as price range.
The reason you guys are actually on the podcast is because when I, I went to an event on West Palm Beach called Eudaimonia, Brian Johnson was there.
34:42
His booth was there at, they're speaking about longevity.
And I think it was a Fanny from your, your company and said that, well, this is Brian Johnson's company of choice.
And I know Brian Johnson, for those not aware of his endeavor in the world, he is a longevity pioneer, much like an early pioneer trying to climb Everest.
35:00
He is trying to climb to, he's trying to climb to live as long as he can, as healthy as he possibly can.
And he's got a multi $1,000,000 research team, you know, 1012 doctors I've heard that are looking over every, every single aspect of what he's willing to do for his body and the fact that he's chose cell collabs as his direction to take.
35:22
Now, I know he's talked a little bit about his procedure, but can you say what Brian is done and why he chose to work with the company?
Obviously the cleanliness, the GMP, but there's got to be something there.
And that that really speaks for me.
It speaks to the quality of the product.
35:39
Well in in the best of worlds, you would ask Brian this and he would, he would speak it on your show.
Yes, Brian is a study participant of Cell Club Clinicals in the Bahamas.
And normally I can't speak for obvious reasons to any of of our participants.
What I quote is what he has self posted in on social media and I think it is fairly well known if you read any news article about Brian is that he spends roughly $2,000,000 per year on his health and on his team of doctors.
36:07
And they had been researching and looking at doing stem cell treatments for over 2 years.
And I mean, with his, his, our mod of doctors, they search every corner of the world and they hadn't been able to find a stem cell provider which they fully trusted and thought it was worth the while of, of testing it.
36:26
And then through Professor LeBlanc and and Caroline's guy, they found cell clubs and, and when they did their due diligence on us, they saw that well, we stem out of 25 years of world leading research.
We are approved by the Swedish FDA for GMP production for investigational use.
36:42
And I think that was kind of what sealed the deal with Brian saying this is a provider that I trust.
This is where I, I want to be part of a clinical trial.
And then to some extent, our values align where he put into the fact that, yes, I want to be part of a clinical trial, it's a way to accelerate the research.
36:59
And I fully support that because at the end of the day, I think, and once again, now I speak to his mission and he has to do that himself, but he really wants to also democratize the access to health by making science and knowledge freely available.
So that is how we got in contact and that is why he has participated in our clinical trials.
37:17
And to pick up what you mentioned earlier, there are things that you can do that are for free.
And, and I, I'm happy to share it because it's still quite hard.
And, and if you haven't heard it, but there are five things that you can do for free to live longer and healthier.
You should sleep enough.
37:32
Number one, that's the most important thing.
The second most important thing is actually to have friends and A and a community, even if it's just nodding to the cashier at the Tesco in your supermarket.
That is important for your health, sleep, social community.
I never remember the order of the 3rd and the 4th but it is eating right and doing doing your exercise and the 5th is not doing drugs, nicotine and alcohol included.
37:56
And if you get this 5 right, then you're on on a good way.
And then you have genetics and other things that chance that happens in life.
I'm a medical doctor.
I'm the CEO of a pharma company.
I'm a father of two fantastic boys, Edwin and Oscar.
They're 3:00 and 5:00.
So I should get this right.
38:11
And I don't the risk, but still I don't get this right.
I work too much, I sleep too little.
And due to culture, I do enjoy the occasional glass of of wine.
So that is then the the question is if if I don't even get it right, how can I expect it from anyone else?
I can't.
And that is why we need healthcare and worst case, we take care of people once they're deceased.
38:29
But what I'm looking for in the journey that we're on, what we where we really want to get this to help to prevent the onset.
How can we help people stay healthy?
It's not the fountain of youth, but if we're going to live to 100 or 120, what if we can stay in full health for longer?
It would be amazing what we can achieve and and the life quality we can have keep whether it is traveling or or just by sitting at home, spending the time with your children, your grandchildren, with your family and your friends, working and doing good things in life.
38:58
That's where I want to to, to come.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a beautiful reminder.
And it's certainly where I tell people to go.
It's like check the free boxes first.
I, you know, from someone who's went through metastatic cancer and severe Lyme disease and we can go on and on and on about the list that the audience is definitely bored of hearing about.
39:16
But I've first looked to stem cells and I would hear about stem cells because it was a treatment for Lyme disease.
So people there was a clinic and I believe Switzerland called peristalsis, which people would go over and they would get these very high volume doses of stem cells and, and some people and some people would have miraculous results.
39:35
They'd get their lives back.
Other people, not so much.
It actually many stories I heard of people getting worse and much sicker.
Obviously Lyme disease, a number of different infections and Co infections, Borrelia, Rickettsia, we could go on and on and on.
It's very complicated.
There's no Lyme disease that looks similar.
39:52
It's very diverse.
It's with most diseases, right?
The variable is you and me.
But my interest especially with this democratizing these treatments.
I would love to see the cost come down.
I would love to see them be more accessible.
40:09
You know, there's definitely an area of sometimes I'll look around and you know, the devices that I have, the red light therapy, the sauna.
I definitely feel, I feel I'm aware of my privilege that I can have these things.
It's also what I prioritize.
So it's, it's not a fancy car, it's a fancy sauna, right?
40:27
You know, it's I literally, it's laughable.
I have all my clothes.
My home are in two dresser drawers.
I wear basic clothes, basic colors, but it's that's not what's a priority.
You know, I'll wear my shoes so they have holes in them, but I'm going to have APEMF device, you know, that's going to boost the electrical current and my body suits accelerate it's healing factor.
40:48
Like these are my priorities.
So I do think there's a balance there, especially in America.
It's very interesting to me what we spend our money on.
Can we go back to the procedure, whether you were to enroll in a trial or go to an area to get a stem cell treatment, what is the span of the cost?
41:06
If we really do, and I really want to talk about the cell collabs using this, this GMP, like let's put that filter on it.
It's what are people looking at as far as an investment and how have you seen people work with their finances to be able to achieve some of these treatments?
Absolutely, I'm happy to.
41:22
And I think maybe take even one step further back because you mentioned that there are people who go around the world and they get different treatments and, and they're like like a triad of similar treatments where it's important to be able to differentiate them, especially in the US also in part in the, in Europe, there has been PRP for a long time.
41:38
You take peripheral blood, you spin it and you take out the good stuff and you give it back, whether it's in, in a joint or, or if it's IV.
And that has documented effect when you look at science.
Next devil is doing autologous stem cells, taking your own cells and giving them back often into a joint.
41:55
For example, if you're a snowboarder and and and you've had an accident, you can pick some bone marrow from your hip bone and and take out the stem cells and reinject that.
That has also been shown to be advantages for you.
The issue is that most of us who get the injuries or diseases, we've passed 30 or even 40 once we get it and then our own cells are not as potent anymore.
42:16
That is why you want to do allogeneic stem cells, cells from a donor.
And the beauty of mesenchymal stem cells is that they are immunoprivileged, meaning you can anyone is a global donor and anyone is a global receiver.
So we don't need to match as if it was an organ.
Therefore we can always pick the most potent donors.
42:34
And it's just like giving blood, it grows back in three to six week.
It doesn't harm the donor.
And then we can use that bone marrow to manufacture more cells.
And so of course, there's a price range from the PRP to the tolerance cells to the allergenic cells.
But I would say that there's a pretty straight line or even it's a hocus Dick, given that with the allergenic cells, you get more cells, they're quality insured.
42:56
You make sure that they're sterile, you know how many they are and therefore you see the better results in, in the clinical trials.
And if you look then at stem cells or just within stem cell tourism around the world, you can find things from a couple of $1000 whether it's in Mexico, India or elsewhere up to as you said, most more decent institutes that it will cost.
43:16
It will start around 15 or 2025 thousand and then it goes through the roof from there.
My only input, as I said earlier, wherever you go, look for GMP.
Good manufacturing practice.
If they do GMP it is you can never say that anything is safe.
43:35
When you punch a needle through the skin or in into into a joint there is a small risk of infection.
But if you have a good doctor that should be close to 0 and if you do AGMP product it is as safe as can be that it is still sterile.
If it's been handled in the right way it's will will be viable cells of high potency.
43:53
If you go look for that, it would come at a higher price point than the cells that are used in animals, but it will be much safer.
And at the end of the day, that is important for everyone doing stem cell tourism or therapy.
So short answer, price range, a couple of $1000 through the roof.
44:08
If you're going to have decent GMP cells, it would probably start around 2025.
As for our own cells, and I don't mind, you can come do our subsidiary sales in the Bahamas or elsewhere.
That is not the conversation I want to have.
If you want to know more about ourselves, you can look at our at our subsidiary homepage, which is cell clubs, clinical.com.
44:29
Cell clubs clinical.com, it's super easy.
You can just Google it.
We'll put that in the show, that's for sure.
Thank you very much.
And then are of course other well known brands as well.
Do look for GMP, that is the most important thing.
And if it's not GMP, it should be a substantial discount in terms of of monetary price because you're paying with risk.
44:48
Yes, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
Do you have a favorite resource that you send people to when they're interested in doing some research and exploring?
This is something they may want to invest in in the future.
Absolutely, I do.
It is www.cellclubsclinical.com.
45:06
It's a great source where where you can find a lot of free information, but you can also book a free call with one of the clinical advisors of the trials.
They are highly educated, they know everything.
They don't want to sell anything.
They speak from science.
They can advise you and then you can either go with us or you can go elsewhere.
45:27
But you get educated and you make an informed decision before you go anywhere for themselves, treatment or tourism.
Beautiful.
Yeah, I think that's a really good for me, this is like planning.
It's it'd be like planning like a trip of a lifetime.
And like, you know, and, and I am thinking about it and I do think in the next two to three years, I would love to experience a procedure.
45:47
You know, you get online and you see some people market the, the cell count, like how many stills you'll get and they market, you know, you can do like a full body stem cell makeover.
You can even do your hairline.
When I start researching it, I'm always overwhelmed.
46:05
So I think just like I would plan a trip somewhere, you know, I'm going to go look for reviews, I'm going to go look at what the team is.
I love that we have this new information around GMPI think that's really great.
Is it your understanding that the number of stem cells is not the most important thing that you're doing in a procedure?
46:22
I think there are three things that are super important.
GMP for safety, it is the potence of the cells, which is if it's a good manufacturer and it's GMP cells, the potency should be good.
And the third is number.
But here it's important to know that it's not a higher number must not mean better effect.
46:42
Just like if you take Advil you won't get less pain.
If it's a kilogram of the Advil, you will probably die instead.
So there, there is a number of cells that is probably optimal and that is why the global standard dose is around 100 million cells is probably beneficial depending on on the indication to go to 200 and then dependent indication it could be higher.
47:05
But if you do a longevity focused dose and then you're in full health, then probably 100 million is the normal standard dose.
But that can always that should always be discussed with the person that you're working with.
And also to build on, on previous question, if it's because I really like what you say, it's an investment in your health.
47:23
And that would be that is what we see.
And for many people approaching us saying that this is my condition or Army full health, this is my financial means.
And I'm thinking about investing in in in my future health.
And our response is we think that is a very, very smart investment.
We can't promise you anything.
47:38
We're doing research, we're finding out what it is.
And this is one of the main challenges in the world.
There are so many charlatans promising better hairlines, better sex life and whatever it may be, we don't promise that we promise that we will bring you GMP approved cells for investigational use in the safest mean that we can think of in the most responsible men working with the best doctors in the US and in in in the Bahamas, giving them very exactly if it's a musculoskeletal, putting them not only in the knee, but in the right place in the knee.
48:07
And when it's IV, make sure that it's it's provided in a proper way.
And that is why we see a lot of interest from around the world, even from big corporations with, with the C-Suite teams where they have corporate programs for high output teams, they will want to make it part of the package and and the salary package.
48:25
I can understand.
Why If, If, if you want, if you have a good employee that is working their butt off literally, then you want to make sure that they stay healthy and work for many years for you.
So.
Yeah, I, I just, I mean, this is this is where I get excited about this stuff is where the company starts to see that when the employee is not in pain, when they're happy, when their brain works, when they have robust energy throughout the day.
48:50
The company, I mean, what is that a 10X over a year or two years or 20 years was 100 X.
It's just a happy employee is everything.
And I think so many of us, I mean, if, if you go to it, if I go to an event and I speak and I'm like, who feels amazing?
Who's a 10 out of 10?
49:06
Nobody raises their hand.
A couple people, it's very, very rare.
Most people are really, they're really struggling.
And you know, we over rely on things that, you know, we over rely, you know, our first thought is like, well, let me get more caffeine in the day to get more energy in the tank.
We're borrowing for the energy credit card.
49:23
It's really exciting to me that we could have the idea where a company could start to subsidize some of these things because we definitely have subsidized other, other stuff that is just crap.
So I, I'm putting that on the universe.
I want to be mindful of our hour.
I'm actually going to go to a doctor.
I'm going to go to my doctor's appointment.
49:39
We're going to do a bunch of fun stuff, review my labs.
I would love to have you back on, especially when we get some more data coming out when you can first talk about those results.
And you know, as I start to do my exploration, I would actually kind of excited.
I want to set up a consult with somebody at the clinic and I can definitely give my feedback to my audience on how that went.
49:59
So that that'd be fun for me just to like ask an expert and just start digging in and see what we might be able to do to put a calendar on a date at some point.
Thank you so much.
Very thank you for having me on the show.
I'd be happy and honored to be back.
And you are an important partner of ours.
50:15
We work according to another acronym, BBP Big Ball, and in partnerships.
We're a small dog with a big bar coming out of Stockholm, Sweden.
There's no way I can spread the world and inform the world with the information that people need to have to make informed decisions.
And you're part of that.
50:30
It's a super important thing that you do.
So thank you for having me on.
I'd be happy and honored to be back.
And if you want to have a even deeper personal conversation on your health and stem cells, I would be happy to do that with you, but not on online or sharing that with the viewers.
50:46
And you also like welcome to to book with our clinical devices on on the setups clinical.com always.
Yeah, very, very exciting for me.
This has been such a treat.
I'm going to close you out with one more question.
The beautifully broken podcast that, you know, we, we really talk about, it's like when we fall down, it is the opportunity, the energy, how we get back up, how we put the pieces back together that really defines our life.
51:08
What does it mean to you personally to be beautifully broken?
A chance to rebuild even better, stronger for me, my family, my colleagues, and change the world to become a better place.
Because I've learned something when I broke.
Beautiful, beautiful.
That's a beautifully broken podcast.
51:23
It was a pleasure having you on and I will see you again soon.
Big love.
Looking forward to it.
Big love.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in.
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51:42
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51:59
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52:19
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52:40
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52:57
And you're always going to consult your physician for any medical issues that you may be having.
My closing.
The world is shifting.
We need you at your very best.
So please take the steps to always be upgrading.
Remember, while life can be painful, putting the pieces back together is a beautiful process.
53:17
I love you.
I'm your host, Freddie Kimmel.
Big love.