The Science of Turmeric and Ayurvedic Medicine with Dr. Shivani Gupta

WELCOME TO EPISODE 194

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Freddie Kimmel (00:01.189)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beautifully broken podcast. I am here with Dr. Shivani Gupta and she has a PhD in turmeric. Welcome to the show. So exciting. Tell me, tell me, I asked you at the beginning when we were chit chatting this morning, how long have you been a doctor and what drove you to get that accreditation?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (00:14.286)
Thank you, thanks for having me.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (00:28.782)
So I've had my PhD for about six years now, and it was something that I did purely because I wanted to write books to change the world. So I had studied this system of medicine, Ayurveda, for years on my own, but I knew that if I was going to write books, people would want me to have an official degree. So I went after the masters. And once I was doing the masters, my advisor was like, you should do a PhD. And I was like, that's insane. That's going to be so much work. It's going to take so much time. He's like, trust me, you won't regret it.

Freddie Kimmel (00:47.927)
you

Dr. Shivani Gupta (00:58.702)
And so once I jumped into the PhD on turmeric, I became this crazy evangelist. And now here we are.

Freddie Kimmel (01:06.021)
Yeah, so have you have you let me ask you this have you drank the Kool -Aid on turmeric? Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (01:07.406)
Absolutely. All day long I have. I'm obsessed. Like I think about it day and night. If I don't take it, I'm worried about myself. I'll be taking a shower and I'll be like, you know, if my husband doesn't take his tumor, what does that mean for his longevity? I have to hide it more food. Like I do think like that.

Freddie Kimmel (01:24.421)
Yeah. In your short bio you gave me, it says your passion is teaching at home remedies to reduce inflammation naturally that will help you enjoy more energy, less brain fog, less pain, and ultimately achieve better health. I'm assuming, my assumption is that tumor plays a big role in that process and mission.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (01:51.054)
It does. Turmeric does. And truly all the super spices from Ayurveda are very powerful. But to me, turmeric does the best job at it. It's the most efficient. And a lot of times I don't have time to reach into every super food or be absolutely perfect in my diet. I'm doing my best. I'm lifting heavy and doing the things. But if turmeric can just give me the result, then I feel like I've done my job. So that's why I'm so into it.

Freddie Kimmel (02:12.279)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so with that, you know, I'm so fascinated in the body's, how the body manages its relationship to outside worlds. We talk about, we just mentioned inflammation. It's something that we, we, we share a belief that inflammation is the root cause of many disease processes. And it's also a good thing.

Right? The body is giving us an inflammatory response to grow muscles, to create change, use hormetic stressors. We can talk about, the, the spike or like the hormetic stressor of like lifting you, you mentioned you did really heavy squats today. So, so how do you, how do we work with this container of inflammation being a needed processes and not over -paliating or over -suppressing that inflammation response? How does that come into your conversation?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (03:06.83)
You know, like you said, it is good and we need it. But at the same time, most of us are carrying this chronic low grade persistent inflammation that's causing trouble all over the place. And so one of my mentors, when I was initially in the PhD process, he's like, look, in our twenties, we end up having these bad habits. We have poor sleep, we have lots of stressors, maybe we pull all nighters, maybe we're over drinking in the college years, but we turn on these light switches of inflammation.

And once we've turned them on, like when do we really pause and do a profound detox or Ayurvedic detox to turn off that inflammation? It's rare. So oftentimes you see people entering their 30s, their 40s, their 50s, and each decade that they hit, they have new complaints. In our 30s, we're like, I'm tired. I don't want to go out as much. I'm slowing down. You know, things are changing. 40s, that gets louder. 50s, that gets much louder.

Freddie Kimmel (03:47.301)
you

Freddie Kimmel (03:52.421)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (04:02.254)
And he said, this is the problem is this inflammation is carrying on throughout. And if we don't shut it down, then we've got trouble. And so for me, I look at it as, as young as possible, let's start having the conversation around an anti -inflammatory diet movement, importance of sleep, importance of how and when we eat, not just what we eat, our gut health and our microbiome, and then the super spices that we can use as opposed to just the super foods. And so I kind of create this like six pillar world.

where I want everyone to have the Ayurveda toolkit in their hands so they know that they have an entirely new toolkit to play with when it comes to reducing that inflammation. Because what I don't want to hear in my 50s, 60s, and 70s is horrible diagnoses that are going to shut down my whole world. And that's always been the body of work that I followed is how do I prevent the horrible diseases that affected my family?

Freddie Kimmel (04:48.037)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (04:54.117)
Yeah, if I were listening to this podcast for the first time and I had never heard the word Ayurvedic, how would I apply that as a filter to health? Or if you looked at that as a system of medicine, what's different about Ayurvedic medicine or the Ayurvedic principles?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (05:09.358)
Sure. So Ayurveda is an entire system of health and healing and medicine from India that's over 5 ,000 years old. And within it, we always had surgery and all the subspecialties, pediatrics, all these things are encompassed within it. And then also, Ayurveda teaches you a way of life. So it's called the science of life. And it teaches you how to use self -care, circadian rhythm, your mind -body constitution, these different tools that you can pick up at any time to really intuitively manage your health better.

with what your body needs because we're also bio individual. So on any given day, based on how you're feeling and how things are going, you can structure how and when you eat, what you drink, what you eat to feel better and to stay more balanced and more in flow. And that's what I love about Ayurveda is it's an entirely different approach to managing your health as opposed to just go, go, go and burn out and crash into a wall at the end.

It's very much like, how do we improve with age? How do we feel even better? How do we become more vibrant, more aligned? Because the goal is bringing body, mind and spirit into alignment. That's Ayurveda.

Freddie Kimmel (06:16.421)
Give me one of your favorite practices involved in Ayurvedic medicine that you think is so profound that you'd love to see people adopt.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (06:24.512)
You know, I have a simple one that I created. I learned the 12 Ayurvedic self -care rituals that were meant to do daily, and they involve things like a tongue scraper and oil pulling and dry brushing these self -care tools. But as a mom, as an entrepreneur, I was like, I kind of need something throughout the day that just reminds me to take care of myself, because otherwise I'm just working and hustling. And so I created something called Tea Time is Me Time. And that's my cue. It's like my anchor point five times a day to just pause.

check in and I'll ask myself questions like, how are you doing today? Have you planned so you get to eat today? Anything you need to change this week so you actually survive it? And it's interesting, I have trained my intuition to give me very good answers. So it'll say, no, actually, you're gonna starve to death tonight when you get to the thing. No, you need to lighten up the weekend. This is not working. And so I love that. It's like my anchor cue for a moment of mindfulness and self -awareness that then sets me up for success.

Freddie Kimmel (07:22.469)
Hmm. I have one more follow -up question about Ayurveda. Is there a, you know how I'll give you an extreme example that isn't great. We'll look at the US food pyramid, right? You're like, well, for people that are not watching this video, there's like a sideways like scowl. But what is an Ayurvedic medicine or Ayurvedic principles of health?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (07:39.35)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (07:48.197)
how do we look at food and what things are the priority if we looked at a pyramid of that nature?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (07:53.23)
Sure. Ayurveda teaches something called the Sattvic diet. And the Sattvic diet is what you consider like a yogic diet. So we teach that every food has its own properties and some of them can stir us up and make us angry. So if we're eating lots of onion and garlic, then don't be wondering why you're always like frustrated and angry. Those foods are going to be heating and they're going to cause that in the body. Then you can have very cooling foods or dull.

Freddie Kimmel (08:07.525)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (08:20.974)
that will slow you down and bring you into a low energy state. So we talk about Rajasic, Tamasic and Sattvic foods. So when it gets to the Sattvic foods, really those foods are yogic. That's eating organic and fresh and local. That is cooking your food with love and knowing that the energy you cook with will directly be infused into that food. That's not microwaving your food or using different techniques that kill the food, but instead really honoring that all the different elements of that food are meant to nourish yourself.

Freddie Kimmel (08:37.029)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (08:51.342)
And we talk about taking three deep breaths or taking a moment of gratitude or prayer before you eat. Why? Because we want to get you out of your sympathetic nervous system into your parasympathetic. We talk about when to eat. And so according to Ayurveda's circadian clock, we teach that 10 to two on the clock is when the sun is the highest in the whole day. And that's the best time to eat your biggest meal with the most nutrition because you're most supported in the absorption and assimilation. So it's a lot around the times.

And then also when you sit to eat to not dilute what we call the ugly or digestive fire that's there to absorb that food. And so I tell everyone, look at your digestive system as a campfire and don't sit there and take cold water and pour it on the fire and turn it off right before you eat. So when you go to a restaurant, you'll notice a lot of Indian families will say, can I have a hot water, please? Can I have room temperature water? That's because we don't want to turn off our digestive fire right before we eat. So no icy drink.

no iced tea, no ice water, none of it. Instead of honoring that like this meal matters, this is my opportunity to put good in my body with awareness. And then outside of that, you can have your fun cold drinks if you want.

Freddie Kimmel (10:00.485)
Yeah, I think that's really resonates with me. I've never, it's almost been 15 years of me saying abstaining from water. I was like, should I be diluting my stomach acid with cold water right now? It never made sense. And so it's just something I've, I've adopted and I love the intentionality that you're bringing the idea of every meal. It's, it's like existence is sacred, but then eating. Wow. I mean, what a great experience.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (10:14.158)
Right.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (10:18.848)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (10:29.125)
what an opportunity to celebrate life every time we make a meal. Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (10:32.846)
Exactly, exactly. And we've built this society that's so instant. And even my kids, it's always like shoemakers, kids don't have the shoes. My kids want what's like frozen, what's instant, what's fast food. And I keep reminding them, guys, this is not gonna work. Like you are literally building the building blocks of your body and your brain and your mood and your mental health. And so I will purposely open turmeric and probiotics in their food and pan heat the food. We don't microwave anything in this house.

and then I hand feed them just to ensure that everything I want is going in there. So yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (11:06.821)
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, it's a great reminder. And it's like you said, a 5 ,000 year old system. it's been around for a while because you know, we had, it was developed in a time of deep knowing there wasn't, you know, we didn't have, we couldn't go source the internet. We just had to do what worked and that's what it was. So I, I just want to remind everybody at home. It's sometimes it's not, it's not the what you're eating, but it's the how, and it's the when.

and we could easily throw things out of a dietary paradigm. And maybe it was just moving that big old meal to like between that 11 and two, which when you say that out loud, isn't it so silly? We go out for these late meals and order like a steak and desserts and like sugar and people then drink alcohol on top of that. And you wonder, like, you feel like you've been beat up with a bat. You've been road hard and put up wet after you go out at night. It's crazy.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (12:02.702)
Yeah, no, it's true. And once you live this lifestyle, anytime you do anything like that, the pain is like a 3x to 5x. Like last night, I attended a business dinner. It ended late and I ate like vegetarian gluten free, but still I could tell my sleep was ruined. I woke up this morning and I was like, hmm, how often are we going to do that? We have to just finish dinner before you go. And when you get to that dinner, all of the clear soup and

Freddie Kimmel (12:12.165)
100%.

Freddie Kimmel (12:24.901)
How often are we gonna do that?

Freddie Kimmel (12:28.997)
Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (12:30.894)
Call it a day, that's the only way to succeed through that journey. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (12:34.661)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting as you do remove all those things I mentioned in the triggers and you change your lifestyle, the attunement right becomes stronger. I become more effective. But as you mentioned, when I fall off, when I have a bad day, when I go to a, you know, when we go to a four in Vegas and you're walking through a smoky casino with like blue lights and it's so hard to find it's almost near impossible to find cleanly sourced.

vegetables and meat in Las Vegas, even though the food can be good, it's really, it's a challenge. So you see the effect that I'm like, I, I ate a bad meal last night, not even that bad, but it's just like the sourcing and the energy around the meal. And it feels like I was on a four day drinking bender.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (13:21.166)
I know, I know I've started traveling with so much more of the things I need, even on a supplement side, electrolyte side, like I almost have to double my effort for my health just to mitigate the effect of eating the crap food or the airport food or in crazy places that are frenetic. Like I think we forget energetically what it does to us to be in such chaos. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (13:28.901)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (13:36.261)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (13:43.109)
Yeah, let's talk. we've said it a couple different ways already. We've said turmeric and we've said turmeric. I, I notice probably the typical American pronunciation as I've read through some of your literature that I was, I've been actually saying the word incorrectly, that it is turmeric, that there is an R in there in the front part of the word.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (14:02.734)
Yep. To each his own. I see so many people say it turmeric now that I've started saying it that way, but I always said it turmeric. So.

Freddie Kimmel (14:09.157)
Yeah.

So funny. So why turmeric? What got you started?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (14:16.046)
You know, my family growing up, I used, I'm from Houston, Texas, but I grew up going to India every year of my life. And growing up, every time I landed, someone would either be dying or pass away of a horrible disease or the end effects of diabetes, or we were trying to save them. So it was like quadruple bypasses. And my dad did everything he could to change and reverse disease in his parents. And I saw him do it in front of me with vitamins, with biohacking tools, but back in the eighties.

Freddie Kimmel (14:33.317)
Mmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (14:45.87)
You'd order them all to the house and use them. And so to me, I always thought, okay, we worked so hard to build success in this life, but the last whole quarter you pay that price of stroke, heart attack, all that stuff, that's unacceptable. Like what was the point of the first three quarters? And so that's what set me on my journey to studying Ayurveda, fixing my own gut health, building myself an immune system.

Freddie Kimmel (15:03.877)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (15:11.118)
And then once I did, I was like, the whole world needs to understand Ayurveda. How can I only be the one who finds this thing over in India that needs to be brought here and brought west? And so when I was sitting in the Ayurveda courses and we were in herbology class and they went through each spice and imagine I have an Indian household, we cook Indian every day in our masala spice box, we have cumin and hing and garam masala, all these spices, fenugreek, fennel, it's all there.

And turmeric, of course, is always there. And I just never appreciated what that one spice could do. So when they explained it, my brain was like, wait, every time I eat a superfood, it's because it's anti -inflammatory and it's antioxidant and it's immune supportive. So if I'm taking all this stuff and I'm into all of it for that benefit, but this one spice does it, why can't we just take the one spice? Like if it's that well received and it does all that. So that's what sent me on my journey.

Freddie Kimmel (16:02.021)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (16:06.478)
And now I get to study even more science. Like I work with scientific teams for, can we prove how effective it is for knee osteoarthritis? Can we understand why it interacts with so many of our genes and has such a well received experience in the body? So now my turmeric science is moving even further, but it started because of my own family history.

Freddie Kimmel (16:28.197)
And so if we looked at that level one, if we were going to have a conversation, you're going to say, Freddy, here's the things I want you to know about turmeric. What's that base layer as far as like mechanism of action and what could someone expect if they started to incorporate turmeric into their diet?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (16:45.966)
Sure, so what I love about turmeric the most is it's anti -inflammatory. So because it's going to reduce that systemic inflammation in the system, because it's so well received by so many pathways in the body, it's going to go after all the big issues in the body first. And I've seen that anecdotally over the last eight years. If someone comes in and says, I have knee pain, I have hip pain, I have back pain, it goes to the biggest problem first. And then once it's got that under control,

It goes after the small problems. So some people will tell me I had allergies and I was sneezing 20 times or I had gingivitis and I couldn't get rid of it, but this somehow got rid of it. So I find that so cool that inflammation is wreaking havoc, but if you can slowly simmer it down and get it to the right level, the body wants to heal itself. So you're just giving it the natural tool from mother earth to get it to do the job it wants to do. And then it's going to hold homeostasis.

Freddie Kimmel (17:32.677)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (17:40.494)
We shouldn't have to take any plant or any supplement forever. Like this can just do its job and then we can step away. And then my second favorite thing is it's immune modulating. So turmeric is antiviral, antibacterial and antifungal. So I use it all the time as an immune support for myself, for my family, for everyone who wants to listen. Antiviral is a big deal because we've got way too many things going on running around and I want to be protected from all of it. And then another big piece is the antioxidant.

Freddie Kimmel (17:43.813)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (18:08.11)
So because it's antioxidant, it's anti -aging, and not only does it battle that as it's happening, it reverses the things that are causing oxidation in the first place. So that's like my layer one. And then my layer two, three, and four is like, I go after preop, post -op, and I work with orthopedic surgeons, rheumatology, then there's brain health, dementia, and then there's anti -aging, which I spoke about at A4.

Freddie Kimmel (18:33.669)
Yeah. So when we look at turmeric and we look at like, let's compare it to when you say inflammation, I was like, well, you know, my parents would be like, when I'm inflamed, I'll take some Advil. I'll take some, I'll take a COX -2 inhibitor to work on an inflammatory pathway. How does turmeric differ in its, you said combining with the human genome when it works on inflammation?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (18:58.734)
Sure, so turmeric actually binds to so many other pathways. It impacts NF kappa B, TNF factor, interleukin 6, interleukin 9, interleukin 1. There's so many, I can see a picture of them, but I can't name them all. But it interacts with so many different pathways in the body, and it's going after reducing that systemic inflammation. So it's not just knocking out your pain, it's actually going after the underlying cause, the root cause. And because it's a plant,

it's that much more well understood by the body. So that's what I like about it is it's going in there to heal as opposed to just mask your pain.

Freddie Kimmel (19:36.133)
Yeah. Do you have a favorite? I know people are always, you know, we're interested in, well, how has this been proven out in the scientific method? Do you have favorite studies that you like to look at or quote when you're explaining the power of turmeric?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (19:51.214)
Yeah, I mean, what's cool is we have over 6 ,000 scientific studies proving the benefits of curcumin. And we have so many different studies. One of my favorites is a knee osteoarthritis study. They studied 157 patients and they used diclofenac, which is an NSAID, I believe. They compared it to turmeric in those patients for knee osteoarthritis and they found it to be as effective. So it's as effective, but without the side effects of taking an NSAID. And we know NSAIDs can cause GI.

bleeds and these kinds of things. So had it been now NSAIDs and Tylenol and these things wouldn't have been reduced, like they wouldn't have been released on the market as over the counters because they're so strong. And nowadays we abuse them as if we can just pop them every day like tic tacs. And we're not supposed to, there are side effects to them. And another big one that came out last year in the British Medical Journal, they published a study that showed that turmeric is as effective as PPIs. So all of GI medicine,

Freddie Kimmel (20:35.813)
Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (20:49.838)
could say to their patients now safely, actually instead of prescribing a PPI, I will prescribe you turmeric. So there's a lot of new science like that. Like I see curcumin science all day on how we can reduce post -op pain med use. We can reduce opioid use. I've seen that out of orthopedics. We could cut opioid use in half out of orthopedics by using a good curcumin.

Freddie Kimmel (21:13.253)
Yeah. Talk to me about, you've mentioned the word curcumin a couple of times. So relate that back to turmeric. And then so funny, cause I used to, I think the first brand that I ever got was like a Jarrow curcumin 95. It was some, some subtract that was like, you know, had purported to have really good benefits above and beyond turmeric.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (21:17.326)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (21:36.046)
Sure. So out of the entire turmeric plant, only 3 % is the curcuminoids. And out of those curcuminoids, we know that curcumin is the most effective at reducing inflammation. And so a lot of people reach out who are juicing their turmeric. They're like, I buy it raw and I juice it and it's awesome. And I tell them, look, please add black pepper or healthy fat. But when it comes to the raw form in India, we always dried it into the spice form, which made it more concentrated.

Freddie Kimmel (22:03.365)
Mmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (22:03.47)
And even out of that spice form, it would take a mason jar of turmeric to give you what's in the supplement form of curcumin. And no one in the West, especially, is eating a mason jar of turmeric within a two week span. Even in the Indian household, I wouldn't go through that much. And so when you look at that 3 % of curcuminoids and that proportion and ratio, I was just in India meeting with my suppliers.

Freddie Kimmel (22:16.933)
Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (22:28.462)
And I learned that the way we process out that 3 % can impact how it's received by the body. You can do it synthetically because you just want to rip it out of there and achieve the numbers on testing. And that's one way to accomplish the goal, but you're not going to get the same reception in the body. Or you can do it naturally the right way, where you naturally hit above the 95 % mark for standardization. And then that is why you can drive a completely different result. And so for me, I'm always like,

Freddie Kimmel (22:50.597)
Mhm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (22:56.814)
Pushing with my supplier teams. I need more science. I need more potency I need more and they're always like you are the opposite of every other customer like everyone else wants cheaper They're here to discuss money and I'm like, that's not why I'm here. I'm here to discover with you guys what we can do So to me turmeric has so much Potential it's so well received, but I think we're kind of bastardizing turmeric. I see it now in orange juice and and different things. I'm like guys

let's understand it's here to help us. It's not here to just be thrown into things incorrectly. That's not gonna help it be absorbed by the body. It needs to be given with black pepper to increase the absorption 2000 % or with a healthy fat. And if you're not doing that, that's kind of a joke. Like you're not doing what the patient needs. And then secondly, a lot of people are just putting turmeric powder into pills and selling it, which I also think is kind of silly. Like you're not creating a systemic shift in the body.

Freddie Kimmel (23:29.317)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (23:46.181)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (23:51.781)
Right. So talk a little more about that, you know, as far as like sourcing quality control, you mentioned, I know this, but I'd love people at home to understand the idea of incorporating black pepper, or you mentioned maybe a fat like a liposomal encapsulation to have better absorption in the body. How do those function and why does that work better?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (24:14.254)
Sure, so the thing is the supplement industry is not regulated at all. Everyone can do whatever they want and it's pretty ridiculous. And so I look at it as there's drugstore brands, then there's health food store brands, and then there's doctor level brands. And there's a big difference because when you go to the drugstore, they have published studies where over 75 % of what we're buying doesn't even have the active ingredient at the quantity stated.

That means when I was buying vitamin D at the corner drug store, I wasn't getting what I thought. And that really enrages me because I'm someone who needs my supplements. I need my immune system held together or else I catch everything that walks by. But knock on wood, I've reversed that. I have the best system now. And then mid -grade fine health food stores sometimes have good brands. Just depends on the brand, depends on the company. Have they been sold to multinational conglomerates who don't give a crap about us, which happens a lot in the supplement sector.

Freddie Kimmel (25:01.061)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (25:09.285)
Yes it does.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (25:10.382)
And then even at the doctor's level, the companies are getting sold left, right and center. And we see that in the food side. But what does that mean in the supplement side? It's the same thing. Those people are changing. They're going to change their suppliers. It's just too easy to do so. And so in my case, eight years ago, when I finished my PhD, I was such an evangelist of turmeric. And my family said, if you're going to be that crazy about turmeric and tell everyone it does everything you say it does, you should make your own.

And so when I went to India to meet with suppliers, I said, look, I want to find the most potent extract on earth because I want to see, can it really replace NSAIDs? Can we really hand this to orthopedics and say, hey, you're going to see that joint pain patient every day. Can I replace? And so my suppliers were like, you are crazy. Like this is too expensive of an ingredient to put into a supplement. And I said, well, try me. Like I'm just going to try an idea. And if I fail, that's okay. I wanted to see what I could do.

And so I built the formula eight years ago and it worked so well, even I was shocked. I was like, what? Okay, I dreamt it. That didn't mean I knew I could make it happen. And so these last couple of years, eight years has been an exploration. It's been me working alongside orthopedics and they're the ones who said, actually one bottle works but this other one in combination is better. We explored that. Then post -op, we know, especially here in Florida, you have to recommend non -opioid alternatives.

Freddie Kimmel (26:11.269)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (26:34.158)
And so that set me on this journey of showing orthopedics that they could cut opioid use in half post -op. So it's just been an interesting journey, but what I know is there's a lot of people out there who are taking private label products and slapping their name on it and calling it their cool brand. You don't know your suppliers. You don't know who you're dealing with. That's just a product made somewhere. I make my product in the United States. I have it third party tested upon arrival post -production before we bottle it.

Freddie Kimmel (26:34.661)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (27:02.862)
Like to me, because a doctor's putting it into a patient's hands, I take that so seriously. And I take that as my own honor and duty to keep it as perfect as I can. And that's why I think we've been able to deliver this result. And it's funny, I was just talking to some mentors and some suppliers and they were like, just make it in India. Are you kidding? Like, why are you so attached? Don't you want to grow? Don't you want to scale? I'm like, of course I want the business to grow. And I of course wanted to grow the right way, but.

I can't sacrifice the thing that matters most. And so that's where I think we lose the intention. I think sometimes companies grow really fast. And when you lose control of that piece, you've lost control of everything.

Freddie Kimmel (27:46.853)
Yeah, I understand it. I mean, I understand both sides. I understand the, there is a bottom line and you know, our, our economy, especially when something comes out, that's effective. It is often a, you can choose to race to the bottom as far as like how much you're going to drop your price and slash, but I'll always go back to this phrase. I it's, it's the cost of doing business.

Like there's a real cost to research. There's a real cost to, service support supply chains that you will not get. I mean, you can get around, but when with each cut corner, it shows up in either indirectly in the product or it shows up in the energy of the company. So it's something that I think everybody just has to get real with and you, you have to know. And it's yeah, it is, believe me, it's, it's so easy because people are always like,

You know, some of the tech companies are like, we can make this. What are you paying for that? my God, we can make this for one quarter of the price. We could do it over here and we could do over there. And it's, yeah, it's a real, it's a real conversation that capitalism seems to drive. it's also a scarcity mindset, which I don't believe in. I really do believe within my heart of hearts. If you have a product that works and your company is in alignment and your messaging and your marketing, and there is a reasonable cost of doing business associated with your product that.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (28:56.942)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (29:14.007)
If it's good, people are going to buy it. You shouldn't need these crazy markets. If it works, it's going to sell itself. And that's what it comes back to.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (29:16.27)
total.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (29:21.806)
Yeah, and I think, you know, we can have a group of us who are dreamers who build things to change the world. Like that's just innate in who I am. I'm lucky that I have a husband and a family and everyone around me who supports me in that. I've always had that actually. I've married 20 years and everyone around me is like, it's okay. You just keep going. We know you're going to win. Because my first business was organic cotton baby clothes. And I wanted the whole world's cotton to shift organic.

Freddie Kimmel (29:31.237)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (29:51.63)
And I'm just that idealistic that I believe that every idea I have is gonna happen exactly the way I see it. That business did not work, but I have the faith that this topic is my topic. This is my dharma. This is my purpose. So in some shape or form, I will find a way to put Ayurveda into people's hands so they can use it, whether it's a pill or a gummy or a tea. Like I keep playing with it till I find the way to convince everyone that.

Freddie Kimmel (30:06.693)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (30:19.95)
You have to invest in yourself. You have to take care of yourself. There's no choice, because you will pay this price, and I can't see anyone paying that price.

Freddie Kimmel (30:28.837)
Yeah. So let's speak about your product and your line and your brand and how it is different. You've mentioned the formulation. You've mentioned third -party testing. I'd love to speak to what you're creating.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (30:44.416)
So what we're most known for is my turmeric gold. And turmeric gold is the classic formula. It's 500 milligrams curcumin, four milligrams black pepper extract, 50 milligrams of turmeric powder. Because when you put that turmeric in with the curcumin, there's the synergistic effect of whole plant with extract that I wanted to formulate, which was new back when I made it. And so millions of people, point on millions, thousands of people have taken it by now who absolutely love it.

And then inflammation relief is my second most popular formula. And so my theory when I made it was this one's the modern Western solution. We have 6 ,000 scientific studies. So Western medicine will trust this one more. So that one is very popular. And then inflammation relief was the ancient Ayurvedic formula. And so when you actually formulate Ayurvedically, you do primary herb and secondary herb to do the job. Third and fourth herbs are helping those go where they need to go.

Freddie Kimmel (31:24.677)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (31:39.278)
And then following herbs are mitigating the negative effects of putting herbs in the body in the first place in such a potent form. And so there's this like symphony that happens with that combination. And so inflammation relief is that it's the curcumin with gurochi with amla with baswalia with dry ginger all put together. And so what's interesting is my orthopedic surgeons put them together. They gave both bottles to all the patients and that's where they see all chronic joint pain. People who are losing function in their hands.

Freddie Kimmel (32:03.077)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (32:08.59)
Like all those types of issues just get relief. And so there's a whole group of people who just take it every day forever and they won't have pain and they won't take the NSAIDs and those things. And then from there, I realized if you don't sleep, you don't clear your inflammation. So I started making a sleep tea and sleep formulas, sleep gummies. Then I have a whole crew who's really frustrated with menopause and perimenopause. I made them a Ayurvedic tea. So right now I'm in this world of can you make a tea as potent as a supplement?

Freddie Kimmel (32:19.525)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (32:37.006)
Can I give you a whole plant, whole leaf and create the same impact? So outside of turmeric, I'm playing with that. But when it comes to my curcumin, I won't make a tea out of it because I can't have people play with their dosage. I need to keep within, it's too potent to mess with it like that. So we're most known for the turmeric formulas and then everything else is my playground of how do I create shifts, but keep within the plant forms.

Freddie Kimmel (32:38.661)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (32:49.605)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (32:57.541)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (33:01.957)
Yeah, I really like this. Every time I look at a product or a supplement, I'm like, that would be good for Cindy and that would be good for Alice. I always have an avatar in my mind and somebody I want to connect, especially the inflammation relief is very compelling. I was just looking at, I think it's 105 ,000 people hospitalized every year from over -the -counter NSAIDs. And then I think last year it was 16,

16 and a half thousand people died in the emergency room from, from stroke, GI bleeds. It's a, it's not an insignificant number. This is just from an over the counter and said,

Dr. Shivani Gupta (33:44.366)
And then look at opioid addiction. Like when I tell people I cut opioid use in half out of orthopedics, they're like, you have no idea of my brother. You have no idea of my husband. And I'm like, wow, how is it that that frequently people are falling prey to opioid use post -op? So that to me is like this whole avenue I haven't even fully approached yet. And then rheumatology post -pandemic is exploding.

And I think they're seeing so much autoimmunity. And I'm curious to see how we can have Kirk even play a role in what they're giving people. I don't think their toolbox is big enough.

Freddie Kimmel (34:23.173)
I would agree with you. Yeah. I just, it's so funny. I'm like 40 minutes off an EMDR session with my therapist. And it's, you know, the other thing that I just want to, I want to call in. It's like, you have to have a big toolbox. And some of this work I've been doing with repatterning with rapid eye movement. It's like, I have a huge change in muscle index tension, joint pain.

joint mobility with no movement. This is like me doing therapy with a bouncing ball on a screen. And so in 40 minutes, there's an immediate change in tissue index intention, immediate, and it lasts. And so I'm just, I just want to offer this to everybody. There's so many great tools out there. Where do you think the energetic, the mental, emotional winds in with the conversation about Ayurveda because I would Ayurvedic medicine, cause I would imagine.

you know, in this expanding toolbox, you're like, yes, do the turmeric inflammation support. And like, what is your other wish for people that you want to combine? So they keep going into those layers.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (35:31.374)
My other biggest wish is that we honor gut health as the most important piece of our entire life. Like we think gut health, it's funny to watch people sometimes because people just eat and I'm like, we, this is not a trash compactor down here. This is the center of life. This is your fire. This is your fire for everything. So I am strategic in how I eat and what I eat because

Freddie Kimmel (35:37.605)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (35:59.406)
I actually want to impact the whole planet. Like I want to shift a billion lives, which would then impact everyone. I cannot do that if I'm constantly just throwing food down there and allowing my gut microbiome to impact my brain health and my focus and my attunements. So this channel is the channel. And I just wish everyone understood that like the honoring of Digestifier with Circadian Rhythm, with DOSHA, like this is all connected.

And so once we get the fires, the inflammation fires, once we use that extinguisher and to put those out, then we've gotten that problem out of the way. And now we can really bring it into your gut health matters. Your gut health is your brain health. Your gut health is your immunity. And IRB that has an entirely different toolkit for gut health. Like a lot of people are talking about gut health right now. We approach it with ginger, lemon tea in the morning.

We approach it with a deep sleep tea at night, like the adaptogens to shut down mind and digestive system to allow for a better night's sleep. Lymphatic health, detox and lymphatics are a big part of Ayurveda. So a lot of our self care rituals in the morning, like ignite the digestive fire and in the evening settle them down. So there's an interplay there that's really beautiful.

Freddie Kimmel (36:50.053)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (37:01.445)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (37:10.565)
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. I love that. yeah, I'm so, I'm always, I'm always excited when I learn on a deeper level, the value of a tool because, you know, in the health space since 2006 or earlier, just by my own, inspiration and journey, because I needed it so badly and turmeric turmeric's been in the conversation, but my understanding of how it interacts.

with every cell in the body is really fascinating to me. I, you know, it'd be a great, I always think about how can we gamify this and get people some evidentiary proof. How long, let's take a hundred people in a room. Let's say everybody has like an ache and a pain and a hurt and a yada, yada, yada. What timeline, if you had a magic wand, how would you set up like a hundred person experience? Would you want them to do turmeric and tea for 30 days, 60 days?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (37:53.838)
Mm -hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (38:08.869)
What would you want people to try just to have like their own personal experience? If you have a magic wand, you get to set up a hundred person study.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (38:16.238)
that would be so fun. I would definitely put them on turmeric gold and inflammation relief for 60 days because we know we'll shut off all the problems that are going on. Like it'll be unquestionable that we'll shut them down, get them back to balance, then they can go into a maintenance plan. I would give them deep sleep teaks. I want everyone to have this like amazing, profound, epic sleep to clear their inflammation overnight because we teach and I would teach them that 10 to two on the same clock is when we should be sleeping.

Freddie Kimmel (38:28.677)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (38:43.63)
to clear inflammation and support a better lymphatic system. And then, yeah, I would teach them the Ayurvedic diet too, if I could. But yes, for 60 days, I think if you start there with sleep and the turmeric, you're gonna see this profound shift. And then my goal is always to get you feeling so good that you want to maintain the result. And every time that falls off and you're like, I don't feel good. You're like, when did I last feel good? it was a few weeks ago and I was doing this. And then you come back to it.

Freddie Kimmel (38:45.221)
Hmm. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (39:02.105)
Yes.

Freddie Kimmel (39:10.661)
Hmm. Yeah. I think that's powerful. I just did a 30 day meditation challenge with the ladies over at Be Loved. Now it's a 12 step spiritual guided program looking at the radical steps. How to radically love yourself. But it was, we meditated in a group together for 30 days and there was a prompt every day to examine or write in your journal. And the fact that you knew everybody else was doing it.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (39:18.094)
Good. Nice.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (39:36.718)
Yeah. Awesome.

Freddie Kimmel (39:37.861)
And we got on the end of the 30 days and we shared our experience. And so many people were like, I felt so interconnected with you guys when people were posting in the group and saying, I did it, I did it, I did it. You know, I always go back to this idea of how powerful it is to do things in a community and not do it alone. Yeah. Yeah. We should set up a turmeric challenge. Let's do it.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (39:49.294)
Very true.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (40:01.678)
Let's do it. Let's do it.

Freddie Kimmel (40:05.861)
Let's do it. I love it. What else are you really excited about Fusionary? Fusionary formulas, which we should say is your brand. What else do you really want people to know about this brand? We've mentioned the efficacy, the sourcing. We've mentioned the synergy of different herbs, which are incorporated. We mentioned this idea of honoring the fire in the morning and the down regulatory process of sleep. What else would you say to people?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (40:15.15)
Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (40:32.302)
Yeah. You know, Ayurveda within its system of herbs has so much wisdom. Like we talk about herbology right now in plants and I love playing with teas and tinctures that can support us. I think that we can constantly infuse ourselves throughout the day with different things that support us. And so one thing I noticed for myself was I needed something to unwind at the end of the day. And so I just developed like it took.

Freddie Kimmel (40:43.685)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (40:59.214)
It takes me a lot of testing before I hit the right flavor profile with efficacy, because I stuff so much Ayurveda into things, then I really have to hide the taste of the herbs, because they're too earthy, is a nice way to say it. But I developed a tea called unwind tea. And my goal there was, when you finish your day, work day is done, and you want to put the work away and switch into your personal life with your kids or your spouse, your partner, or just relaxation, how do you unwind? How do you calm down?

Freddie Kimmel (41:15.109)
Mmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (41:27.95)
And so I put ashwagandha, Brahmi, spikenard, rhodiola, all these herbs together just to like chill. Because I noticed a lot of people like, I need a glass of wine. I need to add something. And that feeling of I need something, in Ayurveda, we know you're craving sugar because sugar will calm down anxiety, or you're craving something to just numb out because life is stressful. But what if you just took adaptogens and it reduced the stress? Then stress isn't causing inflammation, which is a

Freddie Kimmel (41:35.013)
Yeah.

you

Freddie Kimmel (41:53.751)
you

Dr. Shivani Gupta (41:57.454)
key piece here, but also you're getting the support you need to feel the way you want to feel. So I just made unwind tea for myself. So I have a cup of it and then I'm like, okay, I took life from fifth to fourth gear, which is what I needed to have my evening go better in my household. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (41:58.981)
you

Freddie Kimmel (42:09.381)
Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (42:13.893)
Yeah, that's brilliant. But what about what about dosing and protocols? And if people were to look at fusionary, as far as like, I want to put together a 30 day program, how do they know?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (42:28.142)
A lot of people call me on the 800 number. I still answer my 800 number of my company. Yeah, I know soon enough I'm going to have to give it up because it gets, I don't really have so much time, but I love answering because people ask me those questions and I'm like, okay, well, what's the issue? They'll tell me. I'll say, look, for what you're saying, you can start with inflammation relief. If it's a lot, just add on turmeric gold. The two work perfectly together. Then I say, how's your sleep? Then I give them deep sleep tea or deep sleep gummies because the gummies are perfect. If you wake up in the middle of the night, like I sometimes will wake up at three.

Freddie Kimmel (42:30.039)
all hilarious

Freddie Kimmel (42:42.103)
Hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (42:57.422)
I'll take one gummy and then I'll get the rest of my night's sleep. Then I'll talk to them about unwind tea or menopause support tea. So I really customize. But yeah, if I could live with only a few items out of my line, I would do the two inflammatory's, deep sleep and unwind tea. And then I keep those gummies on hand for travel or a bad night when I need the support.

Freddie Kimmel (43:14.693)
Yeah, so I'm hearing there's synergy between tumor gold and inflammation relief.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (43:22.958)
Yes, yeah, there is. They go together very well because inflammation relief has what's in turmeric gold, but when you stack the other one on top, then it's like a, then we're able to truly fight against an NSAID. We're able to say, yes, I'm reducing that systemic inflammation enough that you're gonna feel pain relief. And then in addition, it's good for post -workout. It's like post -workout recovery, I'll take inflammation relief, or if I'm gonna eat out. And I know there's gonna inevitably be gluten and sugar and all sorts of -

Freddie Kimmel (43:41.701)
Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (43:52.174)
in the sauces and food, I'll take an inflammation relief just to like soothe the system down for whatever's coming.

Freddie Kimmel (43:54.551)
Yeah. Yeah. So normally I would say that like, if I'll, I'll give you an example about, inflammatory pathways. I wouldn't want to do an ice bath, for three minutes after workout to blunt the hormetic stressors are all the beneficial, all the good stuff that's released in that really, intense workout. How would, how would, or wouldn't tumoric be a problem for that?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (44:21.678)
I think as long as you take turmeric within the same day, what you're doing is you're supporting yourself to be pain free into the next day. So you're right, immediately post workout, we're building, we're repairing the muscle, we're doing a lot of things. I would leave that process alone for a couple hours. But I find, like for example, I lifted heavy this morning from nine to 10. When I hit like six, I'm gonna all of a sudden be feeling pretty uncomfortable today. Everything's gonna be sore, walking is gonna hurt.

Freddie Kimmel (44:30.711)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (44:51.214)
So I'll take it then just to have a more comfortable evening. And then I won't do that thing where I'm like, I'm hungry. I'm, you know, like sometimes we take discomfort and we reapply it into things we shouldn't. So I will take it then just on like, okay, everything is soothed and settled. I'm just gonna hydrate, eat my small dinner according to Ayurveda and be done. Yeah. Yeah.

Freddie Kimmel (44:52.165)
Yeah. Yeah. I, my chocolate craving is so real. It's like all

And I know that is a, that's something within my constitution. I understand that the craving I'm like, that's something to look at, not just have chocolate stocked everywhere, which I do, but. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (45:15.662)
Yeah. Sure. Right. Yeah. And if you're a bit that and you're craving chocolate all the time, coconut water is the perfect replacement because it'll just cool you right down. So a lot of times we're just looking for a cooling effect and we need to replace the sweets with something else. Coconut water is easy. Less see fruit. Fruit will do it to any cooling fruit.

Freddie Kimmel (45:44.325)
Amazing. Amazing. So if you had a, if you had a magic wand, I could give you a lot of magic wands on this podcast, you can tune everybody in the world to your television station for a minute. What would you say to the people of planet earth right now?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (45:45.166)
Yeah. Yeah. Hey. Yeah.

you have the power within you to change anything about your health that you want to today. And Mother Earth has the entire toolkit for you. She has turmeric, she has ginger, and she's made them to work perfectly in your body and give you the exact result that you want. So just reach into the toolkits, use it, and feel incredible. And reverse anything that you need to, because you have total control of your health.

Freddie Kimmel (46:04.229)
Beautiful. I love that answer. I'm kind of spellbound by the answer. I believe that to be true.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (46:31.534)
Yeah, we actually have this lady, her name's Martha, and she wouldn't travel anymore.

Freddie Kimmel (46:33.253)
If you write my heart, I want to ask you another question. Is that if you really search your experience with Turmeric, is there a story that really lights up your heart about somebody that's had a transformational experience from using Fusionary?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (46:57.006)
And she said, you know, I can't breathe right. I had this knee pain. I didn't even realize she wasn't even breathing through both nostrils. She's like, I just had all these health issues and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. But I stopped traveling, stopped hanging out with people. I just became like a hermit and just worked from home. And she's like, once I started taking fusionary, all of a sudden my knee pain went away. I started losing weight because inflammation and weight are tied together. She's like, all of a sudden I could breathe better. She's like, I could breathe through both my nostrils, which I didn't even know was the issue that was happening with me.

Freddie Kimmel (47:24.869)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (47:26.798)
And she goes, all of a sudden I had more energy and then I had more confidence. And she went on a trip to like Panama and she's like, I didn't know that I could travel again and see the world. I had kind of given up on all that. So to me, that was really cool. I was like, I did not know that we could change lives in that way. It's like such a quality of life difference that can occur when you can bring mobility back and you can build like energy back because you're more mobile. So I think a lot of people take,

Freddie Kimmel (47:54.821)
Beautiful. Beautiful. And we're going to do a code for the audience, correct?

Dr. Shivani Gupta (47:56.078)
and seds and different things for pain, but also for energy because the pain and the slowing down of their joints is taking away all their energy. And so that was interesting to me was, I forgot, like we can shift joint pain and thus mobility and thus entire quality of life in a spectrum that I hadn't even realized. Yes, yes, I made a code, it's beautifully broken.

We'll give you 15 % off at FusionaryFormulas .com. Yeah. All right, let's do it. I'll be with you. I always need help with consistency. Awesome. Perfect. Nice. Awesome.

Freddie Kimmel (48:24.933)
Amazing, amazing. I want to do a 60 day challenge. You got to tell me what to get. Let's do 60 days. Yeah, let's do a 60 day challenge and then we can swing around and we can do a recap on experience. And I'm a very good, I'm very compliant. So I will stick with that. I really like the way I can feel the energy in which...

A lot of times, you know, people are, they have a product or they have a belief system and it's like, it's a spot remover for like, you know, like, let's take away the pain. I think there's something about the energy of turmeric and your work and your research and what it's, I can feel how it is layered into lifestyle. You talk about on your website, tongue scraping and oil pulling and down regulatory teas and managing our hormones.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:03.904)
you

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:08.974)
Yeah.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:17.742)
Bye.

Freddie Kimmel (49:20.901)
And we get this synergistic effect where you can see it's layered into life. So I just want to celebrate you for presenting the work and the brand in this way. So it's not just like, take this pill, don't stop, do not press go, just forget about it all. But there is this awareness about how it weaves into life.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:26.414)
Thank you.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:30.81)
you

Dr. Shivani Gupta (49:42.67)
Absolutely, absolutely. We each have such an opportunity to achieve every dream we have, but also have this quality of life that's profound. And so that's what I'm always chasing is I feel incredible. I have so much access to my energy. Like what if we all felt like this? Then we'd have room in our lives to give and do. And that to me is the most important piece of it all. So yeah, thank you.

Freddie Kimmel (49:48.037)
Hmm.

Freddie Kimmel (50:07.525)
Yeah, room to give. I think when we can turn down the volume on pain, I'm hearing you say multiple times that we're going to have more energy and there's more space to show up in a role of service. What? Yeah, it's a win for everybody. So I celebrate you for being on the podcast. I celebrate you for your work, for being so present, for being so lovely every time we see each other at an event.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (50:21.038)
Exactly.

Freddie Kimmel (50:34.021)
And we'll we'll swing back around after our 60 day challenge. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast.

Dr. Shivani Gupta (50:37.582)
Awesome. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you.

Freddie Kimmel (50:43.973)
Yeah, so it was my pleasure. Big love.